MikeD
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Re: 2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

Mon May 28, 2018 3:02 pm

GerryAZ: I'm not sure I know of an available 208v 14-50 outlet (I had not seen the other post about charging issues with 208v until responding to your post). Does anyone know if RV campsites typically use that?

Looking at the 2018 LEAF Owner's Manual it does explicitly read "The NISSAN Genuine L1 &L2 EVSE draws 30 amps continuously while charging the Li-ion battery with AC 220–240 volt outlet.", and one would expect that there are certain operating requirements. On the back of my 29690-5SA0A EVSE it reads 60 Hz, 120 AC, and 240 AC. One would reasonably expect some lower limit for brownout conditions, yet also want a portable EVSE that operates at most RV campgrounds.

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Re: 2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

Mon May 28, 2018 3:52 pm

Typically RV park will be 240 volts. I understand there was a recent code change to allow 208 volts. Recent in NEC could be ten years or more.

Virtually all RVs only have 120v appliances so the 240 vs 208 is a mute point with no effect on operation.
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GerryAZ
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Re: 2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

Mon May 28, 2018 8:36 pm

I don't know if there are any RV parks that supply their 14-50 receptacles from 208Y/120-volt sources, but there are many 14-50 and 6-50 receptacles in industrial/commercial installations supplied from 2 phases of 208Y/120-volt 3-phase sources so portable EVSEs with 14-50 or 6-50 plugs should be designed to work with 208-240-volt circuits and allow for some voltage drop. I just checked my Clipper Creek HCS-50P and its nameplate indicates the circuit requirements are 208-240 volts and 50 amperes. The installation manual indicates the voltage range is 185-264 volts. Also, my Nissan-branded AeroVironment EVSE at home (purchased in 2011) lists the voltage range as 208-240.
Gerry
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davewill
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Re: 2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

Mon May 28, 2018 9:52 pm

The way I figure it, the designer would have had to work at it to design one that was 120v compatible, but NOT 208v compatible. The DC power supply for the electronics has to work on both 120v and 240v, so probably covers the range in between. Same deal with the contactors. I suspect someone actually programmed it to reject 208v through sheer ignorance.
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RegGuheert
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Re: 2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

Mon May 28, 2018 11:27 pm

davewill wrote:The way I figure it, the designer would have had to work at it to design one that was 120v compatible, but NOT 208v compatible. The DC power supply for the electronics has to work on both 120v and 240v, so probably covers the range in between. Same deal with the contactors. I suspect someone actually programmed it to reject 208v through sheer ignorance.
Agreed.

However, I will note that there IS a change in what happens at 120 VAC versus 240 VAC. Either the EVSE or the OBC or both needs to be programmed to limit the current at the lower voltages to 12A while it will have a higher limit for 240 VAC. As such, there is typically a blackout voltage somewhere between about 150 VAC and 180 VAC.
RegGuheert
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GerryAZ
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Re: 2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

Tue May 29, 2018 4:05 am

RegGuheert wrote:
davewill wrote:The way I figure it, the designer would have had to work at it to design one that was 120v compatible, but NOT 208v compatible. The DC power supply for the electronics has to work on both 120v and 240v, so probably covers the range in between. Same deal with the contactors. I suspect someone actually programmed it to reject 208v through sheer ignorance.
Agreed.

However, I will note that there IS a change in what happens at 120 VAC versus 240 VAC. Either the EVSE or the OBC or both needs to be programmed to limit the current at the lower voltages to 12A while it will have a higher limit for 240 VAC. As such, there is typically a blackout voltage somewhere between about 150 VAC and 180 VAC.


Since the new Nissan unit uses an adapter attached to the 14-50 plug, I expected that it would work like my welder and sense the presence of the adapter to switch to 120 volts. Also, the EVSE needs to change the pilot signal to correspond to 12 amperes to avoid overloading the supply circuit if it is used with a car capable of drawing higher current at 120 volts. I wish I could borrow one of these new units to test.
Gerry
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RegGuheert
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Re: 2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

Tue May 29, 2018 4:56 am

GerryAZ wrote:Since the new Nissan unit uses an adapter attached to the 14-50 plug, I expected that it would work like my welder and sense the presence of the adapter to switch to 120 volts. Also, the EVSE needs to change the pilot signal to correspond to 12 amperes to avoid overloading the supply circuit if it is used with a car capable of drawing higher current at 120 volts. I wish I could borrow one of these new units to test.
I doubt that the test in the EVSE is for the adapter. It is much more direct to simply measure the voltage (or the crossing of certain voltage thresholds).
RegGuheert
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10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

MikeD
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Re: 2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

Tue May 29, 2018 6:18 am

Could the answer simply be that this EVSE is designed as a SAFETY FEATURE not to operate outside the approximate 220-240v range (and so not a "bug")? Using it as a true portable (as opposed to a permanently plugged in home EVSE), one would expect it to realistically have to contend with unknown circuits whose major components (receptacle, wiring, breaker, terminations, insulation integrity) may be sub-standard -- and yet operate as safely as is possible. So, for example, if the plug/receptacle connection is loose and causes arcing or high resistance caused high temperatures, this EVSE by design apparently automatically reduces the allowable drawn amperage or even shuts the charging sesion down. If you expect the voltage in the charging circuit to be within the range of 220-240v and unexpectedly it drops substantially below 220v, maybe because of brownout conditions or even abnormally high resistance in the circuit that could reasonably cause dangerously high wiring temperatures somewhere and not yet not high enough to be detected at the plug, there is evidence that this EVSE shuts the charging session down if the voltage drops below its range of allowable operation.

If this is the case, then this EVSE is not ignorantly or carelessly designed and maybe the OP title should be changed to something like "2018 Leaf - its portable EVSE throws a fault on low voltage including 208v", and those home owners with 208v service should be made aware that this EVSE can't be used as their home's primary non-trickle charging EVSE?

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EVDRIVER
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Re: 2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

Tue May 29, 2018 8:08 am

GerryAZ wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:
davewill wrote:The way I figure it, the designer would have had to work at it to design one that was 120v compatible, but NOT 208v compatible. The DC power supply for the electronics has to work on both 120v and 240v, so probably covers the range in between. Same deal with the contactors. I suspect someone actually programmed it to reject 208v through sheer ignorance.
Agreed.

However, I will note that there IS a change in what happens at 120 VAC versus 240 VAC. Either the EVSE or the OBC or both needs to be programmed to limit the current at the lower voltages to 12A while it will have a higher limit for 240 VAC. As such, there is typically a blackout voltage somewhere between about 150 VAC and 180 VAC.


Since the new Nissan unit uses an adapter attached to the 14-50 plug, I expected that it would work like my welder and sense the presence of the adapter to switch to 120 volts. Also, the EVSE needs to change the pilot signal to correspond to 12 amperes to avoid overloading the supply circuit if it is used with a car capable of drawing higher current at 120 volts. I wish I could borrow one of these new units to test.



The adapter does not need to sense this it can be done via voltage. They also may have a hard limit below 240V at some point to insure cut off for brown outs. Some EVs will cut the charge with voltage sags and this may be a crude way to detect this without that change from 240 to 208 although that would be easy. It also may be there for other reasons. Without testing it is not easy to determine.
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Re: 2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

Tue May 29, 2018 9:56 am

MikeD wrote:... If you expect the voltage in the charging circuit to be within the range of 220-240v and unexpectedly it drops substantially below 220v, maybe because of brownout conditions or even abnormally high resistance in the circuit that could reasonably cause dangerously high wiring temperatures somewhere and not yet not high enough to be detected at the plug, there is evidence that this EVSE shuts the charging session down if the voltage drops below its range of allowable operation.

If this is the case, then this EVSE is not ignorantly or carelessly designed and maybe the OP title should be changed to something like "2018 Leaf - its portable EVSE throws a fault on low voltage including 208v", and those home owners with 208v service should be made aware that this EVSE can't be used as their home's primary non-trickle charging EVSE?


I'd say it has to be either ignorance or carelessness if the device doesn't accomodate the 208V standard. It would be much more reasonable (and accurate) to measure the no-load voltage and then evaluate voltage sag during charge, instead of a hard cutoff that puts a significant part of the grid infrastructure off-limits.
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