sandeen
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Leaf Number: 026685
Location: Minnesota

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:08 am

drees wrote:I suspect that '11-12 LEAFs with a high Hx/AHr ratio don't have the P3227 update. Many people reported a drop in Hx numbers after the update along with a corresponding drop in maximum allowed regenerative braking.


That's why I asked Amped about that detail, but that car did have the update done last September.

Edit: sksingh had it done as well.

Edit2: But maybe they were botched upgrades? RegGuheert's graph does make it look like Hx was nearly tracking SOH (is that the same as Capacity on your graph?) prior to the upgrade.

Edit3: Looks like TickTock's HX did drop by ~15 points immediately after the P3227 update.
(I don't know why I'm even spending time on this) :)
Last edited by sandeen on Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
2012 SL from TX, (mfg 8/12), used, dropped to 8 bars at 43.50 Ahr, 40,601 miles. my daily stats =/= my collected data on 4-bar losers

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Marktm
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Leaf Number: 022737

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:04 am

Sandeen;
The graph points for my Leaf (42.59 ahrs/43.76%Hx), followed having an official "battery report" done by the dealer (actually several months before the replacement). I was told that included the "update". Is there a way to confirm through actual records?
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.
Rural cabin with 6750 watts Grid tied PV. Off-grid solar Leaf charging capable (level II).

sandeen
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Leaf Number: 026685
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:08 am

Marktm wrote:Sandeen;
The graph points for my Leaf (42.59 ahrs/43.76%Hx), followed having an official "battery report" done by the dealer (actually several months before the replacement). I was told that included the "update". Is there a way to confirm through actual records?

The dealer or Nissan corporate can tell you if it was done, but others have said that the Nissan recall campaign check website will tell you if the update is still outstanding, as well.
2012 SL from TX, (mfg 8/12), used, dropped to 8 bars at 43.50 Ahr, 40,601 miles. my daily stats =/= my collected data on 4-bar losers

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RegGuheert
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:20 am

sandeen wrote:Edit2: But maybe they were botched upgrades? RegGuheert's graph does make it look like Hx was nearly tracking SOH (is that the same as Capacity on your graph?) prior to the upgrade.
Yes, my "Capacity" is percent of original capacity remaining, which should be the same as SOH. BTW, notice that Hx is roughly SOH^2 following the P3227 Update.
Marktm wrote:Sandeen;
The graph points for my Leaf (42.59 ahrs/43.76%Hx), followed having an official "battery report" done by the dealer (actually several months before the replacement). I was told that included the "update". Is there a way to confirm through actual records?
Nissan is not supposed to replace ANY battery until after the P3227 update has been applied, so the fact that your battery was replaced makes me think it was applied. And since your Hx is roughly SOH^2, I'd say you had P3227 applied. (0.643^2 = 0.413)

Your paperwork from the dealership should also indicate that P3227 was applied.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

cyberyeh
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:45 pm

I bought a 2012 SL back in June with 9 bars, with warranty expiring on October 10. Leaf Spy shows SOH at 67% with 44.35 AHr. After quick charging twice a day the past couple weeks, AHr went up to 44.46! Has anyone experienced AHr going up after quick charging? Called Nissan and they said they don't do any out of warranty free or cost sharing battery replacement anymore. Don't think I'm going to make it.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:01 am

cyberyeh wrote:I bought a 2012 SL back in June with 9 bars, with warranty expiring on October 10. Leaf Spy shows SOH at 67% with 44.35 AHr. After quick charging twice a day the past couple weeks, AHr went up to 44.46! Has anyone experienced AHr going up after quick charging? Called Nissan and they said they don't do any out of warranty free or cost sharing battery replacement anymore. Don't think I'm going to make it.


the QC bump is normal and temporary. Let it sit a few days or simply don't drive it a lot and it will drop back down. How hot did you get it? With the minimal amount of time you have left, I would think heat is your only chance
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 24,261.3 miles.363 GIDAhr 80.66Hx95.95%kwh28.1QCs205,L2's 226
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:43 am

cyberyeh wrote:I bought a 2012 SL back in June with 9 bars, with warranty expiring on October 10. Leaf Spy shows SOH at 67% with 44.35 AHr. After quick charging twice a day the past couple weeks, AHr went up to 44.46! Has anyone experienced AHr going up after quick charging? Called Nissan and they said they don't do any out of warranty free or cost sharing battery replacement anymore. Don't think I'm going to make it.


While QC-ing may help in hot weather to hurry along degradation (but increasing battery heating), there is evidence, as you see, that in normal temps it may be rather unhelpfully helpful, by lowering internal resistance, even if only temporarily...
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

cyberyeh
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:38 pm

I moved to San Diego after I bought the car in LA, and it's been quite cool this summer, and it's been around mid 70's lately. I've been driving the car and quick charging this past few weeks, and the battery gets to around 100 F, AHr went down 44.12 today. Maybe I should just let it sit a few days fully charged and see if it'll go down more than quick charging. I've read another thread that someone get a free battery after warranty expired by going through BBB, is that possible?

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:07 am

cyberyeh wrote:I moved to San Diego after I bought the car in LA, and it's been quite cool this summer, and it's been around mid 70's lately. I've been driving the car and quick charging this past few weeks, and the battery gets to around 100 F, AHr went down 44.12 today. Maybe I should just let it sit a few days fully charged and see if it'll go down more than quick charging. I've read another thread that someone get a free battery after warranty expired by going through BBB, is that possible?



If you are going to do the fully charged in the Sun thing, you need to drive enough to QC 3-4 times first. Heat that pack to 10-11 TBs then fully charge it on L2 and let it sit in an asphalt parking lot.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 24,261.3 miles.363 GIDAhr 80.66Hx95.95%kwh28.1QCs205,L2's 226
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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abasile
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:29 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:If you are going to do the fully charged in the Sun thing, you need to drive enough to QC 3-4 times first. Heat that pack to 10-11 TBs then fully charge it on L2 and let it sit in an asphalt parking lot.

Wow, this is just ridiculous. I'm not saying this advice won't work, and I feel for fellow LEAF drivers with diminished battery capacity, but EV drivers shouldn't have to become experts in battery destruction. Yet this is exactly what Nissan's "all or nothing" warranty policy leads owners to do, now that Nissan has ended support for their horribly degraded batteries that are just outside the capacity warranty.

To be clear, I'm not blaming DaveinOlyWA for giving this advice. I'm just struck, once again, by the sheer ludicrousness of the situation. Five years ago, in late 2012, it still wasn't widely known that LEAF batteries degrade rapidly, so you can't blame those who purchased LEAFs then - this is really on Nissan. Even today, a great many buyers of new LEAFs likely have no idea how quickly they may lose capacity.

This is the sort of issue that leads to calls for more regulation. Perhaps all EV manufacturers should be forced to disclose metrics related to battery life, such as coulombic efficiency which has been shown to be a proxy for how rapidly a Li-ion battery is likely to degrade.
2011 LEAF at 69K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 89K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

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