DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12313
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:48 am

abasile wrote:
This is the sort of issue that leads to calls for more regulation. Perhaps all EV manufacturers should be forced to disclose metrics related to battery life, such as coulombic efficiency which has been shown to be a proxy for how rapidly a Li-ion battery is likely to degrade.


they could provide it and the 3 people who would read it would undoubtedly come away with more insight...

but as we all know; charts and graphs will do nothing. Nissan put out a chart that was actually quite realistic (if you could find those driving conditions that is...) and it did nothing... Very few knew about it and even less could extrapolate the data into their personal existence.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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abasile
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Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:17 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:they could provide it and the 3 people who would read it would undoubtedly come away with more insight...

but as we all know; charts and graphs will do nothing. Nissan put out a chart that was actually quite realistic (if you could find those driving conditions that is...) and it did nothing... Very few knew about it and even less could extrapolate the data into their personal existence.

It would probably need to be distilled and simplified for a mass audience, but be based on measurable standards.

The metric could be "average battery life expectancy" in years, i.e., 4.6 years before dropping below 80% capacity (maybe for a LEAF).

If properly implemented, this could be nearly as useful as the EPA range ratings for EVs, which are watched very closely.

The downside is that regulations like this could lengthen the path to market for battery improvements. As the market matures, though, this might be a reasonable tradeoff.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

Philipr144
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:19 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jul 2017
Location: Bakersfield Ca

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:03 pm

I'm almost certain that degradation is mostly because of heated cells during charging. Since April I've lost 2 bars. I have quick charged about 90 times since then. I watched it go from a 16kw batter to a 14.6kw battery all based on 115 degree quick charging in this Bakersfield summer heat.

I know most wouldn't approve of this type of use but it's what I got.. I drive my kids to school and it's about 100 miles a day. I have to fast charge 2 times a day now that school is back in.
2011 Leaf 76% SOH 212Gids 50ah 66.3k miles 10 bar

Supersleeper
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:04 am
Delivery Date: 06 Aug 2017
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:42 pm

Philipr144 wrote:based on 115 degree quick charging in this Bakersfield summer heat.


YIKES! My best advice? Move. I installed fiberglass insulation one summer in Bakersfield at 115 F, and I about died. I had a broken swamp cooler I learned how to fix REAL FAST. Won't do that again. Visalia, Dinuba, Fresno and similar towns up north are much cooler, and should have similar home prices.

115 F, no thanks...

BuckMkII
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:05 pm

:lol: When I lived in San Francisco, I had two friends from Bakersfield, and visited there a few times, including once in July or August. Wow. Now in Seattle, if anyone says "Oh, it's so hot today!" I ask, with as much scorn as I can muster, "Have you even HEARD of Bakersfield?"
2013 SV no QC, manufactured July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17: AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250
on 9/29/17: AHr = 55.3; SOH = 84%; Hx = 81.6; ODO = 41,492
bar 12 lost 8/21/17

cwerdna
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:51 pm

Philipr144 wrote:I'm almost certain that degradation is mostly because of heated cells during charging. Since April I've lost 2 bars. I have quick charged about 90 times since then. I watched it go from a 16kw batter to a 14.6kw battery all based on 115 degree quick charging in this Bakersfield summer heat.

Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not "kw". And, I don't put any stake in assertions that someone has x kWh in the battery or remaining per Leaf Spy. See viewtopic.php?p=472552#p472552 and viewtopic.php?p=476092#p476092.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

SageBrush
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:35 am

cwerdna wrote: I don't put any stake in assertions that someone has x kWh in the battery or remaining per Leaf Spy.

What metric do you use ?

I follow Ahr and try to measure at 80% SoC for consistent voltage readings since I'm most interested in trends.
Of course, for all I know the SoC is based on voltage so I may be chasing my own tail.

It does not take me long to get very confused by the subtleties involved in battery health evaluation.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12313
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:19 am

SageBrush wrote:
cwerdna wrote: I don't put any stake in assertions that someone has x kWh in the battery or remaining per Leaf Spy.

What metric do you use ?

I follow Ahr and try to measure at 80% SoC for consistent voltage readings since I'm most interested in trends.
Of course, for all I know the SoC is based on voltage so I may be chasing my own tail.

It does not take me long to get very confused by the subtleties involved in battery health evaluation.


kwh available can be altered by changing GID setting. On my 30 kwh LEAF, if GID = 77.5 wh, the kwh available is 28.1 If GID = 80 wh, the kwh available is 29 kwh.

As far as what metric you should look at the most? Imm, it would be a mistake to not look at all 5. Currently my pack is degraded (after 25,000 miles how could it not be??) but 3 of the 5 metrics; SOH, kwh available and GIDs (obviously) say no degradation.

So if you had to limit yourself, I would pick Hx and ahr since they are the only two that states my battery is no longer "perfect"
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cwerdna
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:40 pm

https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan. ... 866372981/ is supposedly a 6 capacity bar car for sale on Craigslist w/75.5K miles and 27 miles showing on the GOM at 12 fuel bars. Vehicle history unclear but the OP of that thread says LA for the area.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

cwerdna
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Posts: 7257
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:45 pm

SageBrush wrote:
cwerdna wrote: I don't put any stake in assertions that someone has x kWh in the battery or remaining per Leaf Spy.

What metric do you use ?

To evaluate battery condition, I'd look at AHr, SOH and Hx. # of gids on a full charge is a bonus.

And, if it's a used car, it is critical to get a Carfax/Autocheck to see if the numbers line up the car's build month and previous climate.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

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