cwerdna
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Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:27 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:For guys considering buying out leases with bad batteries, I just was quoted:

Brand new LEAF-S, with CHAdeMO quick charge and 6.6kW onboard charger, 30kWh battery for $33,000 minus $17,000 discount, $500 loyalty discount, $0 down, $299 month with California sales tax.

Residual 27% !!!!

Plus a $2500 California rebate check.

The total cost to drive the new car with new, bigger battery is $10,700 - $2500 for three years.

Wait, I'm confused by your math.

33,000 - 17,000 - 500 = 15,500
15,500 - 2,500 = 13,000

Or, are you just talking about a $299/month 3 year lease of 36 * 299 = 10,764, for which you can take the $2,500 CVRP? 3 year lease should actually be 35 payments of $299 but the $10.7K before CVRP is close enough given the $395 disposition fee at lease end.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

DaveinOlyWA
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Posts: 12225
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:44 am

cwerdna wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:For guys considering buying out leases with bad batteries, I just was quoted:

Brand new LEAF-S, with CHAdeMO quick charge and 6.6kW onboard charger, 30kWh battery for $33,000 minus $17,000 discount, $500 loyalty discount, $0 down, $299 month with California sales tax.

Residual 27% !!!!

Plus a $2500 California rebate check.

The total cost to drive the new car with new, bigger battery is $10,700 - $2500 for three years.

Wait, I'm confused by your math.

33,000 - 17,000 - 500 = 15,500
15,500 - 2,500 = 13,000

Or, are you just talking about a $299/month 3 year lease of 36 * 299 = 10,764, for which you can take the $2,500 CVRP? 3 year lease should actually be 35 payments of $299 but the $10.7K before CVRP is close enough given the $395 disposition fee at lease end.


prob random fees. why isn't loyalty $1000?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sub3marathonman
Posts: 306
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Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2012
Location: Bartow, FL

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:16 am

OK, I finally found the data for my 2011, ended up being down 7 capacity bars, 5 capacity bars remaining when battery was replaced under warranty.
I wish I could have posted it as an image where everything is in nice columns, or figured out how to do that here. Maybe somebody knows and I can edit this.

mod edit: changed to [code and fixed some spacing issues

Code: Select all

Nissan LEAF Capacity Bar Loss 6/2011 5797
12 bars ----------  3/31/2012 ---------- 1000
11 bars ----------  4/ 5/2013 ---------- 12770
10 bars ----------  8/10/2013 ---------- 17978
09 bars ----------  5/23/2014 ---------- 30098
08 bars ----------  3/ 8/2015 ---------- 40594
08 bars ----------  4/24/2015 ---------- 42472 ---------- P3227 Update
08 bars ----------  4/24/2015 ---------- 42472
07 bars ----------  7/16/2015 ---------- 45080
07 bars ---------- 11/20/2015 ---------- 49366 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) AHr = 37.19, SOH = 56%, Hx = 50.03%
07 bars ----------  2/15/2016 ---------- 52438 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) AHr = 37.15, SOH = 56%, Hx = 49.98%
07 bars ----------  2/19/2016 ---------- 52572 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) Ahr = 37.11, SOH = 56%, Hx = 49.88%
06 bars ----------  4/25/2016 ---------- 55076 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) Ahr = 35.14, SOH = 53%, Hx = 47.87%
05 bars ----------  8/ 5/2016 ---------- 58867 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) Ahr = 30.70, SOH = 46%, Hx = 43.24%
05 bars ----------  9/29/2016 ---------- 60161 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) Ahr = 30.47, SOH = 46%, Hx = 43.03%


Code: Select all

12 to 11 bars ----------12 months----------12000 miles
11 to 10 bars ----------04 months---------- 5000 miles
10 to  9 bars ----------09 months----------12000 miles
 9 to  8 bars --------10.5 months ---------10000 miles
 8 to  7 bars-----------04 months ----------4500 miles
 7 to  6 bars ----------09 months ---------10000 miles
 6 to  5 bars ----------03 months ----------4000 miles





Based on this too, I wonder if all capacity bars (except the 12th of course) are created equal. It seems that it almost alternates a big amount for a capacity bar (ex. #10, #9, #7) to a small amount for a capacity bar (ex. #11, #8, #6), somewhat to even it out over two capacity bars. I have always suspected too that the calculations were not the same and there was additional time/capacity before it would drop the 9th bar and trigger the Klee settlement warranty.

I also thought I'd say that I have not entered these into any database, so if somebody knows how to do that they can, and if they need any more information from me I'll try to provide it.

And a thank you to the moderator who fixed this. I would have never known to use "code" to set up a chart.
Last edited by sub3marathonman on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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TonyWilliams
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Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:29 am

cwerdna wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:For guys considering buying out leases with bad batteries, I just was quoted:

Brand new LEAF-S, with CHAdeMO quick charge and 6.6kW onboard charger, 30kWh battery for $33,000 minus $17,000 discount, $500 loyalty discount, $0 down, $299 month with California sales tax.

Residual 27% !!!!

Plus a $2500 California rebate check.

The total cost to drive the new car with new, bigger battery is $10,700 - $2500 for three years.

Wait, I'm confused by your math.

33,000 - 17,000 - 500 = 15,500
15,500 - 2,500 = 13,000

Or, are you just talking about a $299/month 3 year lease of 36 * 299 = 10,764, for which you can take the $2,500 CVRP? 3 year lease should actually be 35 payments of $299 but the $10.7K before CVRP is close enough given the $395 disposition fee at lease end.


The actual deal for a 2017 LEAF-S 30kWh with CHAdeMO was:

$33k cap
$14k discounts
$19k net capitalized cost
$9k residual
$10k - cost for 3 yr / 36,000 miles @ $277 monthly with California use tax X 35 remaining payments
$0 down

WetEV
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:50 am

sub3marathonman wrote:
12 to 11 bars ----------12 months----------12000 miles
11 to 10 bars----------04 months---------5000 miles ---------- 4/5/2013
10 to 9 bars ----------09 months ----------12000 miles --- 13 months
9 to 8 bars ----------10.5 months ----------10000 miles ---------- 5/23/2014
8 to 7 bars----------04 months ----------4500 miles ---- 14.5 months
7 to 6 bars ----------09 months ----------10000 miles ---------- 7/16/2015
6 to 5 bars ----------03 months -------4000 miles --- 12 months

Based on this too, I wonder if all capacity bars (except the 12th of course) are created equal. It seems that it almost alternates a big amount for a capacity bar (ex. #10, #9, #7) to a small amount for a capacity bar (ex. #11, #8, #6), somewhat to even it out over two capacity bars.


I added the total for two bars. Notice that you dropped about two bars a year. One longer period over winter, one shorter including summer. I suspect the pattern we see here is seasonality, not different sized capacity bars.. Very little capacity is lost in winter, more is lost in summer, especially in hot places.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

sub3marathonman
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:57 am
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2012
Location: Bartow, FL

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:54 am

WetEV wrote:I added the total for two bars. Notice that you dropped about two bars a year. One longer period over winter, one shorter including summer. I suspect the pattern we see here is seasonality, not different sized capacity bars.. Very little capacity is lost in winter, more is lost in summer, especially in hot places.


OK, that probably does make the most sense. Here in Florida, compared to up North, I'm thinking every day is summer. :)

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drees
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:12 am

I"m currently sitting at 8 bars, 40.4 Ah and 174 GIDs on a 100% charge after 60k miles and coming up on 6 years of ownership. 8th bar dropped 2 months after 5 years of ownership last August at 43.3 Ah and 186 GIDs on a 100% charge.

Bar 12: 30 months, 22k mi, 55.3 Ah, 228 GIDs
Bar 11: 41 months, 34k mi, 51.6 Ah, 220 GIDs
Bar 10: 52 months, 43k mi, 47.9 Ah, 205 GIDs
Bar 09: 62 months 53k mi, 43.3 Ah, 186 GIDs

You can see the trends, about 10 months / bar, 10k mi / bar, 4 Ah / bar, 14 GIDs / bar. I estimate that I'm a couple months away from losing the 9th bar.

Energy from the wall to recharge after getting below VLBW is less than 16 kWh. New, this would take 24 kWh or more. This puts me at around 65% capacity.

I managed to squeeze out 52 miles a couple weeks ago at a mediocre 4.1 mi/kWh - this compares with the 75 miles I could get the first year at similar efficiency, so all the numbers are fairly close to matching.

What really doesn't help range is the abysmal regenerative braking. While these crappy Conti PureContacts I just got managed to suck out a bunch of efficiency (avoid these if you care about efficiency), not having more than 10-15 kW of regen for most of the charge doesn't help city driving efficiency. You really have to have a nice warm pack (90F+), SOC at LBW or less and vehicle speed less than 45 mph to get close to 30 kWh.

What's interesting is that the lack of any active cooling is now showing up in the form of higher internal resistance in cell-pairs 4-44, especially in the middle of that range. Under steady load those cells are sagging significantly more than the the cells around it and cell-pairs 48-96. Once you start approaching those cells are also the first to start sagging at rest. You can see some very significant cell-pair voltage differences as you

With a horrible resale value at this point (probably $4k), there's no point in spending $6k on a new battery pack. The only thing that might make sense would be dropping a pack salvaged out of a '15+ LEAF if it could be done for less than $3k. First business to figure out how to marry a new pack to an old LEAF without having to do a labor intensive module swap will do well.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

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abasile
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Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:26 am

drees wrote:With a horrible resale value at this point (probably $4k), there's no point in spending $6k on a new battery pack. The only thing that might make sense would be dropping a pack salvaged out of a '15+ LEAF if it could be done for less than $3k.

While our LEAF hasn't lost as much capacity as yours, we do suffer from diminished regen thanks to the combination of battery degradation and colder mountain temperatures.

I figure the best thing to do is just keep using the car as long as possible. Recently, for instance, some of us used it for a 50 mile round trip to a star party on the east side of Baldwin Lake (a large, shallow, seasonal mountain lake near Big Bear, CA). While we encountered a low battery warning on the way home, it served the purpose well, it saved miles and wear on our secondhand Tesla, and we felt fine eating in the car and using it to collect some rocks for our landscaping.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

DaveinOlyWA
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Posts: 12225
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
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Contact: Website

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:51 am

drees wrote:I"m currently sitting at 8 bars, 40.4 Ah and 174 GIDs on a 100% charge after 60k miles and coming up on 6 years of ownership. 8th bar dropped 2 months after 5 years of ownership last August at 43.3 Ah and 186 GIDs on a 100% charge.

Bar 12: 30 months, 22k mi, 55.3 Ah, 228 GIDs
Bar 11: 41 months, 34k mi, 51.6 Ah, 220 GIDs
Bar 10: 52 months, 43k mi, 47.9 Ah, 205 GIDs
Bar 09: 62 months 53k mi, 43.3 Ah, 186 GIDs

You can see the trends, about 10 months / bar, 10k mi / bar, 4 Ah / bar, 14 GIDs / bar. I estimate that I'm a couple months away from losing the 9th bar.

Energy from the wall to recharge after getting below VLBW is less than 16 kWh. New, this would take 24 kWh or more. This puts me at around 65% capacity.

I managed to squeeze out 52 miles a couple weeks ago at a mediocre 4.1 mi/kWh - this compares with the 75 miles I could get the first year at similar efficiency, so all the numbers are fairly close to matching.

What really doesn't help range is the abysmal regenerative braking. While these crappy Conti PureContacts I just got managed to suck out a bunch of efficiency (avoid these if you care about efficiency), not having more than 10-15 kW of regen for most of the charge doesn't help city driving efficiency. You really have to have a nice warm pack (90F+), SOC at LBW or less and vehicle speed less than 45 mph to get close to 30 kWh.

What's interesting is that the lack of any active cooling is now showing up in the form of higher internal resistance in cell-pairs 4-44, especially in the middle of that range. Under steady load those cells are sagging significantly more than the the cells around it and cell-pairs 48-96. Once you start approaching those cells are also the first to start sagging at rest. You can see some very significant cell-pair voltage differences as you

With a horrible resale value at this point (probably $4k), there's no point in spending $6k on a new battery pack. The only thing that might make sense would be dropping a pack salvaged out of a '15+ LEAF if it could be done for less than $3k. First business to figure out how to marry a new pack to an old LEAF without having to do a labor intensive module swap will do well.


I have to say I am still shocked at your numbers. You are getting Phoenix stats, not Mediterranean San Diego stats. I think you got a Lemon...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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drees
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Location: San Diego

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:46 pm

No, there are plenty of other San Diego residents with similar results, some worse, some better.

If I were in Arizona I'd have a new battery pack. Instead I'm still stuck with this lemon.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

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