DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13141
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:19 pm

BuckMkII wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:finish charging as close to your departure time as you can and don't charge to 100% if your one way destination does not drop you to 80% SOC or lower.

Don't charge at work on L2 AT ALL if you do not absolutely need it to make it home and even then, I would still recommend you stopping on the way home for a 15 min QC instead. Reasons are L2 is too slow and its simply a few hours at high SOC during the hottest part of the day.
This I have come to believe is THE NUMBER ONE SOURCE OF DEGRADATION for many of the people here.


How significant do you think this is at battery temps <70° F? I charged my 2013 to 93% this morning and had a post-charge temp of 60°. We are on a fairly early schedule some days, which happen to be the days we have the most after-work driving (roughly 11 kWh between leaving work and parking for the night, when lights and climate control are on for most of the trips). In summer, an 80% charge should finish the day above 30%, but maybe not in winter.

It's VERY convenient to jump on the L2 at work when we come in. All three were empty when I parked today. Utilization is pretty high later in the day. When I went back at 9:30 to unplug (two hour limit on use of those spaces), all were occupied, and I'll bet someone will be in the one I vacated pretty quickly. So, if I don't charge when I arrive, it's likely I would have to run down the stairs to the garage more than once in the early afternoon to find an opening. (Which, admittedly, would be less of an impact on my job than sneaking looks at the forum!)

The "cost" for me of charging at home is not so much the ten bucks or so per week, but the inconvenience. Our garage is too full of recreational equipment to put the car in, so the L1 has to be run out the cat door in the garage door to the car, deployed and put away every time it's used. Add the fun of doing this in the rain, and the few seconds needed to pull up to the L2 at work first thing in the morning looks really good. OTOH, that will seem less "worth it" if the car has 1 kWh more degradation in a few years. I am hoping to eke out driving this car well over five more years.


the only thing certain is that degradation happens at high SOC even in relatively mild temps. To what degree? Dk, what is the bottom boundary? dk that either. I doubt 60º is significant but realize air temperature is not what we judge by. What is the temperature near the battery while sitting in an uncovered asphalt parking lot on a Sunny day when the temp is 70º?

Normally radiant solar warmth is not an issue here but today is an exception. So I wouldn't charge today because although its only 55º, the Sun will make it much warmer. Probably too paranoid today but the issue is Summer time. We have mild weather here but go out and lie in the parking lot at 3 PM in July. "mild" is not what comes to mind.

So now the problem becomes the slowness of L2. Even if you take off as soon as the charge is done, its an hour, maybe 2 at high temps and high SOC. This is what is causing the damage. I still say you are better off stopping for a QC, heating your pack MUCH hotter than L2 would but the key difference is the heat + high SOC exposure is now what? 10 mins, 15 mins cause you aren't hanging out at the QC station. As soon as you get what you need, you immediately start reducing your SOC. After all that is why you stopped in the first place right?

All of this means nothing if it requires things you don't want to do. How is your pack holding up? You have a 2013 so you have loss. How much spare range do you have now? How much "easy" range can you add now? Do you have a trend line on where your range will be in a year? If its tight, you might want to consider this.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 8743 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 111.39 Ahr , SOH 96.49, Hx 114.98
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reddy
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:09 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 006828
Location: Pasco, WA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:43 pm

BuckMkII wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:finish charging as close to your departure time as you can and don't charge to 100% if your one way destination does not drop you to 80% SOC or lower.

Don't charge at work on L2 AT ALL if you do not absolutely need it to make it home and even then, I would still recommend you stopping on the way home for a 15 min QC instead. Reasons are L2 is too slow and its simply a few hours at high SOC during the hottest part of the day.
This I have come to believe is THE NUMBER ONE SOURCE OF DEGRADATION for many of the people here.


How significant do you think this is at battery temps <70° F? I charged my 2013 to 93% this morning and had a post-charge temp of 60°. We are on a fairly early schedule some days, which happen to be the days we have the most after-work driving (roughly 11 kWh between leaving work and parking for the night, when lights and climate control are on for most of the trips). In summer, an 80% charge should finish the day above 30%, but maybe not in winter.

It's VERY convenient to jump on the L2 at work when we come in. All three were empty when I parked today. Utilization is pretty high later in the day. When I went back at 9:30 to unplug (two hour limit on use of those spaces), all were occupied, and I'll bet someone will be in the one I vacated pretty quickly. So, if I don't charge when I arrive, it's likely I would have to run down the stairs to the garage more than once in the early afternoon to find an opening. (Which, admittedly, would be less of an impact on my job than sneaking looks at the forum!)

The "cost" for me of charging at home is not so much the ten bucks or so per week, but the inconvenience. Our garage is too full of recreational equipment to put the car in, so the L1 has to be run out the cat door in the garage door to the car, deployed and put away every time it's used. Add the fun of doing this in the rain, and the few seconds needed to pull up to the L2 at work first thing in the morning looks really good. OTOH, that will seem less "worth it" if the car has 1 kWh more degradation in a few years. I am hoping to eke out driving this car well over five more years.

Since you're in Seattle and it is more convenient, just charge at work in the AM, move the car, and don't worry about it. I have a friend in Seattle with 2x the mileage and less battery degradation that I have in E.WA (both 2011's received at the same time). Drive and enjoy. The battery will degrade more from mileage in Seattle than from high %SOC (except maybe for a couple of weeks in August, and even then I doubt it since you park outside and night time temps are still in the 50-60s in August).
Reddy
2011 SL; 9 bar, 45.80 AHr; 45,000 mi; rcv'd Aug 18, 2011
Long: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... al#p226115"
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p243033"

BuckMkII
Posts: 199
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:18 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Dave is treating his unsupported theories as fact.

That's not a theory, it's a hypothesis! ;)
2013 SV no QC, built July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17: AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250
bar 12 lost 8/21/17
on 8/23/18: AHr = 54.6; SOH = 83.5%; Hx = 78.2; ODO = 49,746

cwerdna
Posts: 8095
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:14 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:the only thing certain is that degradation happens at high SOC even in relatively mild temps. To what degree? Dk, what is the bottom boundary? dk that either. I doubt 60º is significant but realize air temperature is not what we judge by. What is the temperature near the battery while sitting in an uncovered asphalt parking lot on a Sunny day when the temp is 70º?

Normally radiant solar warmth is not an issue here but today is an exception. So I wouldn't charge today because although its only 55º, the Sun will make it much warmer. Probably too paranoid today but the issue is Summer time. We have mild weather here but go out and lie in the parking lot at 3 PM in July. "mild" is not what comes to mind.

So now the problem becomes the slowness of L2. Even if you take off as soon as the charge is done, its an hour, maybe 2 at high temps and high SOC.

When you post temps like only 55 F, that's why I'm fairly dismissive of your 30 kWh battery degradation stats (vs. the 1 to 4 bar losers on 30 kWh batteries). Your climate is so mild and your battery is so new. Add to that your concern about charging at 55 F in the sun...

See attached temps for you vs. the city where my work is today. Admittedly, we're having an unusual bout (for October) of high Oct temps starting today. It did get to 90+ F today. I was luckily able to keep my car in a slightly underground part of the parking garage at work so when I went to plug it in to charge at ~7 pm, battery temps were barely over 70 F. Apple Weather says it's 81 F right now at 7:12 pm and 79 F per Yahoo Weather app. So, my battery will be heated by the L2 charging and ambient temps (EVSEs are not in the cooler underground part :(). I'm only going to charge to 80%, but I bet by the time i arrive home, my battery avg temp will be between 75 and 85 F. Update: It was a bit over 75 F.

When I arrive home, I leave my car outside to cool down at night for typically 4-6 hours before driving it into my garage. I don't like to leave out all night (until morning) on weekdays as it can be a signal to burglars as to when I leave (my house was broken into on Jan 2015 for the first time I ever). For most months of the year, the battery temp is above 60 F when I leave in the morning. I generally can only get my battery temp to below 60 F on colder days in colder months (not most months) by leaving it outside all night, which I might do only on Fri and Sat nights.

For Leafers in Phoenix, I'd guess that from around May to October, if they have to park outside at work, their battery temps probably stay between 80 or even 85 F to 125 F for the entire time.
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WetEV
Posts: 2258
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:28 pm

SageBrush wrote:Degradation: ~ 1 Ahr a month through the summer months

There is one benign explanation outstanding that I have not excluded: it may be that the real battery capacity of my LEAF was disguised by my purchase in January and it became apparent this summer. Next summer by the latest will tell the tale for sure, but if this scenario is true I should see my Ahr and SOH improve during the winter and then fall back again in the summer.


Well, actually no. Ahr and SOH don't seem to change at all in cold temperatures.

As for benign explanations, consider this:

I've seen Leafspy reported AHr as low as 57.9Ahr, and currently see 62.54Ahr.

So why are my Ahrs increasing? And before that, why did my Ahrs drop fairly quickly from ~60 to ~58?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

SageBrush
Posts: 2685
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:41 pm

WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Degradation: ~ 1 Ahr a month through the summer months

There is one benign explanation outstanding that I have not excluded: it may be that the real battery capacity of my LEAF was disguised by my purchase in January and it became apparent this summer. Next summer by the latest will tell the tale for sure, but if this scenario is true I should see my Ahr and SOH improve during the winter and then fall back again in the summer.


Well, actually no.

In your anecdote, I presume
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 2258
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:50 pm

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Degradation: ~ 1 Ahr a month through the summer months

There is one benign explanation outstanding that I have not excluded: it may be that the real battery capacity of my LEAF was disguised by my purchase in January and it became apparent this summer. Next summer by the latest will tell the tale for sure, but if this scenario is true I should see my Ahr and SOH improve during the winter and then fall back again in the summer.


Well, actually no.

In your anecdote, I presume


Well, here is a learning experience.

Watch your Ahr and SOH during the cold months.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

SageBrush
Posts: 2685
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:41 am

WetEV wrote:Well, here is a learning experience.
Watch your Ahr and SOH during the cold months.

Correct.

If you want to look at a well documented example of Ahr and SOH that increase in the winter and return to (the presumed) baseline in the warmer months check out Kootenay's LEAF blog at http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update- ... #more-1309
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 2258
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:55 am

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:Well, here is a learning experience.
Watch your Ahr and SOH during the cold months.

Correct.

If you want to look at a well documented example of Ahr and SOH that increase in the winter and return to (the presumed) baseline in the warmer months check out Kootenay's LEAF blog at http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update- ... #more-1309


Have any DCQC chargers in your area?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

SageBrush
Posts: 2685
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:17 am

WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:Well, here is a learning experience.
Watch your Ahr and SOH during the cold months.

Correct.

If you want to look at a well documented example of Ahr and SOH that increase in the winter and return to (the presumed) baseline in the warmer months check out Kootenay's LEAF blog at http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update- ... #more-1309


Have any DCQC chargers in your area?


No. All our charging is at 6 kW L2, usually at 5am.
Yesterday I charged up to 100% in the afternoon and checked the battery with LeafSpy, and then repeated the check the next morning before driving the car. The Ahr readings stayed the same so if they are to change this winter it will require either driving and/or prolonged temperature drops. In the afternoon after charging the battery average temperature was 65F and in the AM it dropped to 46F (26F ambient.)

During the months of Dec through Feb our average ambient is ~ 35F (40-ish F in the day and 10-20 -- ish at night.)
I know that the car was stored at 55F prior to my purchase, so that may be one data point of what is required over a longer time interval to see the winter effect.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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