cwerdna
Posts: 8392
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:25 am

^^^^
Umm, we do have a thread for "lizard" pack stats/capacity loss at viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532.

You no longer have the crappy battery that came w/Leafs built before 4/2013.

Also, can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it. I have no idea where you are.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 8392
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:55 am

Marktm wrote:
RelaxedGal wrote: The battery is losing SOH a little faster than the Battery Aging Model for Boston, but then again I'm 40 minutes in from the coast and there's no shade at my office. My car is baking on the blacktop and today is 93F with a heat index of 101F. The car was manufactured 6 years 8 months ago and the Battery Aging Model estimates 70% SOH at 7.8 years.


An amazing battery aging report by the "early adopters". When was this last updated? I may have missed it, but the statement about "recent" and "2013" indicates that not too much information on the "Lizard" has been included?

I was not involved in authoring the "aging model" but it originally covered the only known battery revision at the time: whatever was in '11 and '12 Leafs during the whole Phoenix/hot climate capacity loss fiasco: viewtopic.php?t=9694. Turbo3 (he lives a few miles from me) and I did loan some equipment to Surfingslovak for him to bring w/him to Phoenix to conduct Tony's range test (results at https://web.archive.org/web/20160113132 ... p?p=228326).

https://web.archive.org/web/20140714232 ... acity_Loss (July 14, 2014) seems to be as far back as the history goes of that page, at least at archive.org. Not sure if it was hosted elsewhere before and if earlier copies exist.

It is not clear to me whether the model covers the better batteries found in Leafs built 4/2013 thru model year '14. Probably not. We didn't know those were better until probably ~2 years after 4/2013. And, 4/2013 is a good educated guess as to when the switch happened. It seems Nissan quietly made a switch as it was never announced and AFAIK, never acknowledged either.

The copy of that page from July 14, 2014 most definitely couldn't cover the "lizard" packs which we'd just learned of on June 27, 2014: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168. It generally takes at least 2 hot summers for us to tell how a pack is holding up. BBrockman alluded to a "hot battery" (as some have termed it) being in testing in Aug 2013: viewtopic.php?p=320754#p320754. Presumably, that became the "lizard" battery.

BTW, Leftiebiker coined a bunch of nicknames for some of the pack revisions: viewtopic.php?p=533420#p533420. I'm not sure if we ever got confirmation that the newly developed cell at https://www.nec.com/en/global/techrep/j ... 120112.pdf became either the "wolf pack" or the "lizard pack". One would guess that lessons learned from that were incorporated into some packs that went out to customers.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

User avatar
Marktm
Gold Member
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:49 am

Appreciate the detailed response - and the reminder about my location - Thought I had taken care of that some time ago.

I am on my second summer of the "Lizard" replacement pack - I'll post the updated curve later this summer on the Lizard thread - however it does appear that the rather large uptick in ahrs during early summer is heading back down.
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

SageBrush
Posts: 2903
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:54 am

Marktm wrote:The latest battery report on my replacement "Lizard" battery. It does seem the range is taking a nosedive recently - I'm going to have to watch closely.

Compared to my 5 year old battery, yours is quite unbalanced, to say nothing about cell pair 75/76.
Isn't there a Nissan set limit for a weak cell pair that invokes the battery warranty (not degradation) ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
Marktm
Gold Member
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:44 am

SageBrush wrote:
Marktm wrote:The latest battery report on my replacement "Lizard" battery. It does seem the range is taking a nosedive recently - I'm going to have to watch closely.

Compared to my 5 year old battery, yours is quite unbalanced, to say nothing about cell pair 75/76.
Isn't there a Nissan set limit for a weak cell pair that invokes the battery warranty (not degradation) ?



This topic covers weak cells and testing to determine a warranty based fix http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17676. Be sure to read Regs posts on cell replacements - makes some good points. There is a forum member that had such weak cells that seems to have significantly reduced range.

So far, no DTC's have been registered.
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

SageBrush
Posts: 2903
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:30 pm

CVLI test
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/download/fi ... &mode=view

Discharge battery to two capacity bars

A = pack voltage
B = maximum cell voltage in mv

Test value = (2.5*A - 0.144*B) / 96

---------
I suspect that LeafSpy is flagging the cells that fail this test.
The manual (albeit from 2011) says that the test identifies modules that have to be replaced in the absence of a DTC.
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
Marktm
Gold Member
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:33 pm

Has anyone had success with cell replacements based on LeafSpy's identification?
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

SageBrush
Posts: 2903
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:00 pm

Marktm wrote:Has anyone had success with cell replacements based on LeafSpy's identification?

Almost assuredly not.

The point here would be for a customer to have the confidence to authorize a CVLI test at the dealership. My understanding is that a battery found eligible for a warranty claim transfers the diagnostic charges to Nissan.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:31 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Marktm wrote:Has anyone had success with cell replacements based on LeafSpy's identification?
Almost assuredly not.

The point here would be for a customer to have the confidence to authorize a CVLI test at the dealership. My understanding is that a battery found eligible for a warranty claim transfers the diagnostic charges to Nissan.
I seriously doubt that Marktm can qualify for (or needs) cell replacement. The reason is that the CVLI test calculation should be done when the average cell voltage is 3.712 V (about 356 V for the pack) and Marktm's pack is way below that point in the picture he posted. It should be expected that ANY pack will get unbalanced at 5% SOC, even one that it is still well-balanced at 20% SOC.

FWIW, in the wintertime my pack capacity is always limited by cell-pair #37, but I see no such behavior during the rest of the year. It's a bit frustrating to me since the wintertime is when the capacity is already lower and this cell-pair further reduces the range of our car. But clearly the behavior tells the story that the capacity is roughly the same as the other cell-pairs but that the resistance is worse.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

SageBrush
Posts: 2903
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:42 pm

RegGuheert wrote:I seriously doubt that Marktm can qualify for (or needs) cell replacement. The reason is that the CVLI test calculation should be done when the average cell voltage is 3.712 V (about 356 V for the pack) and Marktm's pack is way below that point in the picture he posted.

As I noted, the test should be performed at ~ 2 bars capacity remaining per the Nissan instructions.

I make no predictions about Marktm's pack. My post was to clarify two points:
A bad cell pair may be covered until the Nissan battery warranty unrelated to overall degradation
LeafSpy lets us test in the same way that Nissan will test with their "CVLI" test
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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