Dooglas
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: Full charge or not?

Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:20 pm

valem wrote:So tell me why do I need to charge every day... from what I am learning so far, it appears that the only way to preserve this Leaf battery, is to charge it to somewhere around 50% and leave it in a climate control garage, and never use it... Anything else you do, will cause degradation.

What you are mostly hearing on this thread is everyone's pet theory about how to have the lowest rate of degradation on your battery pack. The trouble is that they are mostly theories (though certainly based on some understanding of Li batteries. For every "never charge it above 60%" owner, you have several others who say they always charge to 100%, have 40k miles on their Leaf, and still have 12 bars. Understandable that you feel frustrated at the range of opinions out there, and the range of experiences. Seems to me you are better off not worrying about it too much. ;)
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30 - purchased

NoReleaf
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:07 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Oct 2018
Leaf Number: 305255
Location: Wheaton, Illinois, USA

Re: Full charge or not?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:04 am

valem wrote:
So tell me why do I need to charge every day... from what I am learning so far, it appears that the only way to preserve this Leaf battery, is to charge it to somewhere around 50% and leave it in a climate control garage, and never use it... Anything else you do, will cause degradation.


Ha! I had the same thought a while back. Courageous of you to put it so plainly (and in my view, with a very dry wit.)

What you are mostly hearing on this thread is everyone's pet theory about how to have the lowest rate of degradation on your battery pack. The trouble is that they are mostly theories (though certainly based on some understanding of Li batteries. For every "never charge it above 60%" owner, you have several others who say they always charge to 100%, have 40k miles on their Leaf, and still have 12 bars. Understandable that you feel frustrated at the range of opinions out there, and the range of experiences. Seems to me you are better off not worrying about it too much. ;)


Indeed. I try not to worry about it, and then some new pet theory comes to my attention. This "charging every day is better than not charging every day" is new to me. I don't like it. It threatens my plan.

"More range than you need" is a bit of a slippery concept when the Leaf is your only car. You could need maximum range and maximum charge at any time. You may reckon that you usually do not, and instead try to calculate what the minimum range you can live with is. If home charging involves getting out the EVSE, plugging it in, unplugging, coiling it up and putting it away again, all outdoors in any weather, you may wish to have some days off from this chore. I am currently on a system of charging overnight only when I fall below 60%. That will never take me to 100%, and on this system I am very unlikely to be at work with less than 50% of charge, either. I rather like it, though I would never put it forth as something optimal for battery life, about which I know nothing. The SOC would dwell mostly between 50% and 80% with random fluctuations, and days with no charging would also fall kind of randomly. If there is a serious and proven benefit to charging every single day instead, I'd like to know what it is.

I used to think that an everyday replenishment charge would be the best approach. Make it a routine so that you don't have to think about it and decide all the time. But I have seen that will I get more juice out of one 10-hour charge than two 5-hour charges, an example being 50% to 81% once rather than 67% to 81% twice. I'd like charging only once every 3 days even better, but sooner or later I think I would regret the risk of being at work with 30% or just getting home with 20%.
2018 Leaf SV Gun Metallic (leased)
All-Weather Package, Technology Package

valem
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:24 pm
Delivery Date: 24 Sep 2018
Leaf Number: 405151

Re: Full charge or not?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:04 pm

NoReleaf wrote:
valem wrote:
So tell me why do I need to charge every day... from what I am learning so far, it appears that the only way to preserve this Leaf battery, is to charge it to somewhere around 50% and leave it in a climate control garage, and never use it... Anything else you do, will cause degradation.


Ha! I had the same thought a while back. Courageous of you to put it so plainly (and in my view, with a very dry wit.)

What you are mostly hearing on this thread is everyone's pet theory about how to have the lowest rate of degradation on your battery pack. The trouble is that they are mostly theories (though certainly based on some understanding of Li batteries. For every "never charge it above 60%" owner, you have several others who say they always charge to 100%, have 40k miles on their Leaf, and still have 12 bars. Understandable that you feel frustrated at the range of opinions out there, and the range of experiences. Seems to me you are better off not worrying about it too much. ;)


Indeed. I try not to worry about it, and then some new pet theory comes to my attention. This "charging every day is better than not charging every day" is new to me. I don't like it. It threatens my plan.

"More range than you need" is a bit of a slippery concept when the Leaf is your only car. You could need maximum range and maximum charge at any time. You may reckon that you usually do not, and instead try to calculate what the minimum range you can live with is. If home charging involves getting out the EVSE, plugging it in, unplugging, coiling it up and putting it away again, all outdoors in any weather, you may wish to have some days off from this chore. I am currently on a system of charging overnight only when I fall below 60%. That will never take me to 100%, and on this system I am very unlikely to be at work with less than 50% of charge, either. I rather like it, though I would never put it forth as something optimal for battery life, about which I know nothing. The SOC would dwell mostly between 50% and 80% with random fluctuations, and days with no charging would also fall kind of randomly. If there is a serious and proven benefit to charging every single day instead, I'd like to know what it is.

I used to think that an everyday replenishment charge would be the best approach. Make it a routine so that you don't have to think about it and decide all the time. But I have seen that will I get more juice out of one 10-hour charge than two 5-hour charges, an example being 50% to 81% once rather than 67% to 81% twice. I'd like charging only once every 3 days even better, but sooner or later I think I would regret the risk of being at work with 30% or just getting home with 20%.


All are very interesting points.

I was doing some thinking, and I am once again back to the "you should charge everyday" comment, and my "why?" reply.

The best answer I got was, "If you are only charging once every 3 days regularly, then you are charging 3X more than you need."

Still not an answer to my question.

You think going down to 20% is too low (I thought 20-80 was the golden range) so if 20 is too low, is 30 ok? what about 35%? or 40%?

Let's assume I drive 20 mi/day and 1%/mi. I could charge up to 40 ... but 20 is too low ... I could charge up to 60, is 40-60% ok or too high?
So in my 20mi/day that I do 40-60% hypotheses ... I get a day off... so I don't charge. But I have to go to the store, it's 2.5 mi away so 5% use
I'm at 40% ... do I charge to 45% (to meet the charge every day?) or do I come back with 35% 20% is too low, but 35% is okay?

I again get another day off, and I have to go to the store again... now I'm at 35% (omg didn't charge yesterday) ... do I charge to 40% (to meet the charge every day?)
Or do I go and come back with 30% ? 20% is too low, but is 30% is okay?

So now I charged only once for 3 days... oh gosh, did I charge too much 3 days ago? But I was doing 40-60 ... should I have been doing 25-45? 30-50? What do I do ...

I'm not trying to argue, only trying to understand... when you say "If you are only charging once every 3 days regularly, then you are charging 3X more than you need." I ask, from where? Obviously not 20% ... but 25? or 30?

I think that there is no answer ...
If I only drive 5mi/day what do I charge up to? 30? 40? Or is it ok to do 45% to 50% everyday as long as I charge every day?
But if I let it go to 30% and charge every 4 days (30-50) I am charging 4x more than I need?

The more I think about it, the more the "charge every day comment" makes no sense to me ... it's not about it being a hassle, it's because there's no baseline. What is the minimum ... makes no sense to me
2013 Silver SL 35,800 mi
Tinted windows.
Battery replaced 05/15/17 @ 29,677 mi

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 11787
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Full charge or not?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:58 pm

Charge to keep the SOC within the range of 25% to 70% and you will be doing the best that can be reasonably expected.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

NoReleaf
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:07 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Oct 2018
Leaf Number: 305255
Location: Wheaton, Illinois, USA

Re: Full charge or not?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:38 pm

"If you are only charging once every 3 days regularly, then you are charging 3X more than you need."


I think you are posing the questions to Dave, a Leaf owner far longer than I have been who might well have a valid point, but...

For me, an overnight L1 charge when I fall below x%, in my case 60%, works. Without being religious about it or worrying about it or splitting hairs about whether charging at 61% is "allowed." Nothing but a guideline to make life a bit simpler. If I should happen to fall to 40% or lower, then I can plug in earlier. I can always plug in earlier. Dooglas above probably said it best. Although Dave also pointed out that you could do "whatever" if his advice didn't work for you.

Oh wait - here are some statements from Dave we may have glossed over:

"There is a lot of data that suggests the shallower the cycle, the better the longevity."
"But the predominance of [12V] battery issues happened with people who didn't charge every day."


OK.

My L1 charges are by definition part of a pretty shallow cycle. No problem there. Skipping a 7 hour charge one day doesn't force me to charge 14 hours the next. You have L2, right? That seems even easier to control. No amount of off-duty charging is out of reach for you. Whenever I have fallen unusually low, I've needed to head for a public L2 charging station to supplement the home charge.

Don't know about the 12V battery thing, but correlation is not cause. People who don't charge every day could be people who charge once a week or do whatever else not related to charging frequency.

Oh, and I just noticed that you have a 2013 Leaf with a replacement battery, whereas I have a 2018 with a new battery, so I should just shut up.
2018 Leaf SV Gun Metallic (leased)
All-Weather Package, Technology Package

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 11787
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Full charge or not?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:48 pm

There is no connection between not charging every single day and 12 volt battery failures in earlier Leafs. That is more related to either leaving the car plugged in but not charging, or taking lots of short trips, with heavy accessory use.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13785
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Full charge or not?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:56 am

Final response to the thread;

Cherry picking ifs and and buts do not lend to the discussion. Nothing but a dodge, waste of time, excessive filler which increases the likelihood of missing something that could be important.

If you think your charging plan is ok, then do it. This thread has already provided information and you have been directed to places like Battery U and you have decided that that is not proof enough. So be it.

But remember; I told you from day one and you were reminded several times that the #1 criteria for charging is maintaining "your" comfort level. Why is that so hard to understand.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jdcbomb
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 12:17 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2015

Re: Full charge or not?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:16 am

I've spoken to other M3 owners, and a number of them limit their charge using their app (or car settings) to 70 / 80 pct. Any reason why Nissan won't allow this again?

Would a third party developer enable a feature in their app be able to stop the car charging at a certain percentage?
2018 Leaf SV - In Service 2019 January - Location: Raleigh, NC.
2013 Leaf SL - Original In Service 2013 February - Bar Losses: 2016.10.17 - 25,843 Miles -- 2017.06.23 - 32,080 Miles -- 2018.04.10 - 37,000 Miles -- 4th: 2018.09.23 - 44,255 Miles

specialgreen
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Mar 2017
Location: Minnesota

Re: Full charge or not?

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:27 pm

jdcbomb wrote:I've spoken to other M3 owners, and a number of them limit their charge using their app (or car settings) to 70 / 80 pct. Any reason why Nissan won't allow this again? Would a third party developer enable a feature in their app be able to stop the car charging at a certain percentage?


I've wondered if someone could make an OpenEVSE which talks to an ODB2 adapter via bluetooth (similar to LeafSpy); and ends the charge cycle when the battery is at 80%. I'm not sure if it's possible to read ODB2 while charging. J1772 will someday include P1901.2 HomePlug/PowerLine Internet communication, which would solve this.

A simple method could be if the EVSE stops charging when the charge current starts to taper.
My charge from last night looks like this:

- starting at 48% (about 13.3 kw-hrs per Tony Williams' chart)
- bulk charge for 90 minutes at 6.6kw (+ 9.9kwhrs to about 23.2 kw-hrs total, or 83% SOC)
- a taper of 67 watts per minute for 90 minutes (+ 5.1 kw-hrs to 28.3 kw-hrs total, or "101%" SOC ).

If charging had stopped after charge current dropped under 6kw, then that would have been around 86% SOC. I suspect that there would be a high day-to-day variability in the end-of-charge SOC%, but this would probably sort-of work some of the time :)

** UPDATE ** was charging from 20% SOC at 6.6kw today, and saw the charging current draw drop. I went outside 10 minutes later and turned on the dash, and saw 94% SOC. That would mean that the taper had probably started around 91% (higher than the 86% guess above). Not ideal, but still well shy of 100%. I'll try to do some more tests.
Last edited by specialgreen on Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:54 pm, edited 5 times in total.

webeleafowners
Posts: 657
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: Full charge or not?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 am

Opinions on wether charging to 90 or 95 percent in winter is easier on the battery than the same in summer? Minus 12 Celsius outside. Car charging at 8 amps. I kinda time it so that in winter it’s around lie 90 ‘s when I get in and leave. Couple percent an hour.

Pre warm not so effective at that rate. :).
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

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