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vrwl
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:33 am

cwerdna wrote:We seem to be getting off topic.


+1 Thank you :)
Vicki
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donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:48 am

At risk of being a bit annoying (sorry!) if others have decided 'enough' in this thread, I think the circuitous arguments that we've lanced out of GRA's anti-EV boil are exactly the reason sales-folks, per the thread top, are trying to talk up the Leaf. It's worth seeing the imbalanced view such people have to try to comprehend why the sales pitch goes so wrong.

Contrary to what GRA has said [that he is 'hoping' that EVs are launched 'properly' with an autobahn-storming pan-European range, and no earlier] he then provides the precise complaints that will prompt VMs to do exactly the opposite and make outrageous claims for a technology which is fundamentally limited in respect of the demands he is making of it.

I'll bow out at this point, if you think it is off-topic. Seemed quite relevant to me, that we have a 'not-EV interested' potential consumer showing the problems of why EVs are not selling well.

GRA
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:49 pm

donald wrote:
GRA wrote:You were the one disagreeing with my earlier post re the necessary ranges required for real-world use, so I was replying to that.

You're setting up your own windmills there. I don't see any such disagreement. You seem so keen to want to argue about something, you're imagining your own arguments now.

In any case, driving to work is a real-world use of a vehicle. I have no problem driving to work in my EV. It directly replaces a diesel car which has clocked up 80,000 commuting miles in the last 8 years and I have no reason to doubt this could do the same, and with a fuel saving of 75%, lower road tax, lower insurance (funnily enough) and expected-to-be lower maintenance. That's pretty 'real-world'.

Oh, yeah - it's also a much more sublime, cosseting driving experience too, and I get to work better prepared and back home less tired. I guess you get to work in a sweaty buzz of adrenalin from your high-speed antics, and then promptly droop from the stress.

Your 'real-world' may consist of racing every other car down the longest highway you can find, like some demented dog on heat. I don't live in that world.

Actually, my real world commute for the past 13 years has been on a bicycle, after I chose to move to where I could do that (and do all my normal errands on foot). And for someone who admits to planning a trip at 140 mph and actually doing 120, is it really wise to be flinging rocks around, given the extensive glazing in your own residence?

I don't race, I move at the flow of traffic. It just so happens that the flow of traffic is usually well above the speed limit in most parts of the U.S. You earlier referred to all the other vehicles doing 55. As Cwerdna pointed out, the national 55 mph limit was eliminated decades ago, and probably bears the distinction of being the only federal law more widely violated than Prohibition. Almost no one drove 55. It was 59-62 if there were highway patrol around (they hated it too), and considerably more if they weren't.

As to your commute speeds, why is 55 a magic number? If you wish to save the planet, shouldn't you be driving 40, or 25 or even the LEAF's best efficiency speed, 12 miles/hour? And why are you using a car, for heaven's sake (and commuting solo, I assume)? Transporting yourself in a vehicle that weighs 10-30 times what you do can only be considered efficient in relative terms - in absolute terms there's nothing efficient about it. How can you live with yourself, you profligate waster of resources? Enough of that.

For those who can use BEVs for their commutes now, great. The number willing to do so will grow as the range increases and the prices come down, provided we don't turn off so many people by lying about these cars real capabilities now and disappointing customers so that they'll never come back. Andy Palmer finally admitted the truth back in January, when he said that the LEAF was a car for people who didn't need to drive more than about 40 miles. Exactly right. Of course, we still can't make a TCOO assessment, because Nissan still refuses to state a price for the battery. However, other companies have done so, and eventually Nissan will be forced to follow suit.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:24 pm

GRA wrote:As to your commute speeds, why is 55 a magic number? If you wish to save the planet, shouldn't you be driving 40, or 25 or even the LEAF's best efficiency speed, 12 miles/hour? And why are you using a car, for heaven's sake (and commuting solo, I assume)? Transporting yourself in a vehicle that weighs 10-30 times what you do can only be considered efficient in relative terms - in absolute terms there's nothing efficient about it. How can you live with yourself, you profligate waster of resources? Enough of that.

I'll just answer, if I may, although it is a little off the topic now so this is the last: Actually I aim for 52mph. This is because in Europe trucks are speed limited to 90kph (56mph). Drive slower than 50 and they catch you up too quick and you risk them hammering you in the back. The vast majority don't seem to mind cars at 50ish+ as long as they get by. At <50 you really start p!55ing them off. Drive faster and you limit their capacity to overtake you cleanly and quickly, unless to jump into the 60's to keep ahead of them, at which point you've made a significant move to a higher energy consumption. There is no safe alternative for me to get to work other than use a motorway, which cycles cannot use, or fast narrow lanes mortally dangerous to cyclists and an extra several miles. I would happily move closer to work, but houses cost twice as much as where I am living. There is no chance of that unless I win the lottery. Pragmatism therefore takes me towards the lowest-cost motorway-capable car. At < 3p/mile energy cost for my EV, there is no cheaper alternative I am aware of. If the mass market wants to carry on at > 20p/mile burning fossil fuels just for the sake of the half dozen times a year, or less, they actually want or need to drive 100's of miles, that's 'the mass market's' choice.

I don't really understand any of the arguments or dismissals that you [GRA] have attempted to convey against EVs. Sorry.

GRA
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:32 pm

donald wrote:
GRA wrote:As to your commute speeds, why is 55 a magic number? If you wish to save the planet, shouldn't you be driving 40, or 25 or even the LEAF's best efficiency speed, 12 miles/hour? And why are you using a car, for heaven's sake (and commuting solo, I assume)? Transporting yourself in a vehicle that weighs 10-30 times what you do can only be considered efficient in relative terms - in absolute terms there's nothing efficient about it. How can you live with yourself, you profligate waster of resources? Enough of that.

I'll just answer, if I may, although it is a little off the topic now so this is the last: Actually I aim for 52mph. This is because in Europe trucks are speed limited to 90kph (56mph). Drive slower than 50 and they catch you up too quick and you risk them hammering you in the back. The vast majority don't seem to mind cars at 50ish+ as long as they get by. At <50 you really start p!55ing them off. Drive faster and you limit their capacity to overtake you cleanly and quickly, unless to jump into the 60's to keep ahead of them, at which point you've made a significant move to a higher energy consumption. There is no safe alternative for me to get to work other than use a motorway, which cycles cannot use, or fast narrow lanes mortally dangerous to cyclists and an extra several miles. I would happily move closer to work, but houses cost twice as much as where I am living. There is no chance of that unless I win the lottery. Pragmatism therefore takes me towards the lowest-cost motorway-capable car. At < 3p/mile energy cost for my EV, there is no cheaper alternative I am aware of. If the mass market wants to carry on at > 20p/mile burning fossil fuels just for the sake of the half dozen times a year, or less, they actually want or need to drive 100's of miles, that's 'the mass market's' choice.

In short, you have made a decision based on your local circumstances as to what's acceptable to you, balancing economic, time, convenience, safety and environmental issues. Fine. Everyone else does exactly the same thing, for their particular circumstances. There will always be someone greener, and someone less green. Whenever one of my green friends or I start believing or acting as if our most appropriate headgear would be a halo, one of us is sure to remind the other(s) of the quote by the classic comic strip character Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and he is us." (Used on a poster for the first Earth Day):

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... Ag&dur=359

donald wrote:I don't really understand any of the arguments or dismissals that you [GRA] have attempted to convey against EVs. Sorry.

I haven't conveyed anything against EVs (although you're not the first to accuse me of being anti-EV). They're tools, they have real capabilities and limitations, and I want them to be sold based on accurate information rather than the cloud of misinformation (wilful or otherwise), hopes and dreams that is still too often the case, so that customers aren't disappointed. Instead of the current case, when their real capabilities are far too often overstated leading to ill-will and backlash. Which is what this thread is about.

Some people appreciate accurate information; some have so much of their ego/hopes/dreams/ideology invested in their purchase that they take such information as a personal affront and accuse those who provide it of being biased against their particular car (i.e. not just the LEAF), if not EVs in general. For an example of the former (not involving the LEAF) see:

http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/vie ... bfe6d8bdff

For an example of the latter (ditto) see:

http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3408

I seem to get accused of being anti-EV at least once a year, usually by someone who is new to them and still a fanboy, when I point out that while they have niches where they work well now, they still have limitations which leaves some way to go before they become universal automobile, v2.0. I've done my best to encourage people to get one when I thought an EV was a good fit for their needs (and _which_ EV or EVs were likely the best options), and I've also done my best to dissuade them from getting one when I didn't think they made a good fit. To repeat, I'm not anti-EV, I'm pro-EV but also pro-accurate information. And that's all I'm going to say on that OT subject.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

theaveng
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:59 am

donald wrote:En-route charging is a short term solution whilst the actual number of BEVs is low.
I have owned a gasoline car over 20 years now, and I have to stop to recharge every 250 miles or so. I've never had a problem finding a station for that task & don't see why a battery car would be any different. Someday there will be as many BEV stations as gasoline stations (perhaps colocated at the same establishment).
So don't be surprised if lower speed limits kick in again, whilst speed merchants like you want to peg it down the highways at speeds that increase the physical end environmental dangers to everyone else..... You should carry on only thinking only of yourself and the essential requirement you have to feel like you are driving fast. What would your life be about, if you could not burn down the highways zooming past slower traffic? That's really important, because other people's safety, security of energy supplies, efficient use of dwindling resources, all of this is insignificant compared with your need to feel like your not driving too slow.
Wow.
Wow.
Wow. So much pent-up hatred to your fellow drivers! Well. I have driven from LA to Sacramento at 55. And at 80 (the prevailing rate). Yes there is a difference in how long it takes to reach the destination... about two hours difference. Not all highways are as jammed-up as the German autobahn. :)

By the way another consideration: I was doing 40 one day, trying to maximize my range, and a cop pulled me over. He said I was going too slow and ORDERED me to drive at least 65 miles/hour. Perhaps you would have told the CHiP to "___ off" but I chose the wiser course of obeying him. :)

And finally: There is no proof that the National Speed Limit of 55 saved any fuel. Even the most-optimistic studies show only 1-2% fuel savings during the 1980s. :D
Personal Lifetime MPG:
89mpg Insight G1
50mpg Beetle TDI
65mpg Civic Hybrid G1

donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:57 am

theaveng wrote:
donald wrote:En-route charging is a short term solution whilst the actual number of BEVs is low.
I have owned a gasoline car over 20 years now, and I have to stop to recharge every 250 miles or so. I've never had a problem finding a station for that task & don't see why a battery car would be any different.

Because of the time it takes to take on a recharge. In a petrol powered car you fill up and move on after, say, 5 minutes, and the next guy comes in behind to fill up to. If instead you took an hour to fill up 250 miles worth then you need 'filling' stations with 12 times as many fill-up points.

I'm not saying that's a problem, it's doable, but that's a lot more real estate being taken up by 'electric stations' and EV drivers already complain about how much they have to pay [or would have to pay] for public charging, so where's the business case for taking on that much real-estate to retail what is a relatively low-cost [thus low profit-margin] commodity?

DougWantsALeaf
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:19 pm

In our 2007 kia sedona, we get 29 mph at 55 and 25 at 65 mph.

That said in 55mph freeways around Chicago, 70mph is the norm.

Safety aside, gas our ev is more efficient
2013 SV Black
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cwerdna
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:55 pm

Slightly OT, but I received a BMW i3 brochure in snail mail today.

On one of the pages, it says "100 MILES PER 0 GALLONS" and it mentions "up to 110 miles* on a single charge.
...
*BMW i3 range of 70-110 miles based on BMW NA test results of real-world driving"

Great... Remember that the i3 is EPA rated at 81 miles, which is less than the current Leaf: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do? ... 8&id=32154.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:58 pm

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=17539 alleges that Carriage Nissan in Gainsville GA used the "100 miles on average" pitch.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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