# of miles before losing the first battery capacity bar

0-10,000
7%
19
10,001-20,000
22%
65
20,001-30,000
33%
97
30,001-40,000
23%
67
40,001-50,000
8%
24
50,001-60,000
3%
9
60,001+
3%
10
 
Total votes: 291
mrradon
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:35 am
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2012

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:16 am

First bar gone: 32,500.
10.125KW Netmeter System, (3) 15 panel arrays
(45) REC225PE-US + (45) M190-72-240-S12
SolarMount I Racking
2012 Leaf, Ocean Blue - 32,800 11 bars

JRoque
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:44 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Jun 2015
Leaf Number: 406755
Location: Miami, FL

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:21 pm

Hi. Lost my first bar today.

Birth: March 28, 2013
Odo: 12,145 miles
SOH: 83%
Geo: 1st life: Georgia, 2nd life: South Florida

I can still drive 100 miles on a single charge. Here's hoping the rest of the bars go quickly enough so the warranty covers the replacement. But if it doesn't, I will replace the battery anyway since this is such a great car.

JR

sarawillington
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:40 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2010
Leaf Number: 4

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:41 pm

I select
40,001-50,000
Graduated from Soran University with First Class Degree with Honours in Computer Science.

Becky50
Gold Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:42 pm
Delivery Date: 02 Aug 2012
Leaf Number: 019032
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:21 pm

Impressive! Where are you located?

arnis
Posts: 751
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:12 am

I've not lost a single bar. Just verified I have exactly 5% of capacity loss. First bar should go at around 15%.
I've done 50 000km (30 000 miles). So most likely the answer for me would be the last one.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

Tuba
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:31 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Sep 2013
Leaf Number: 415773

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:09 am

2013 Leaf SL - 45,200 miles, no bars lost.

desiv
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:10 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2015
Leaf Number: 018850
Location: Lincoln City, Oregon

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:59 pm

I must be really close..
Thought I was going to be there today..
42k and this morning, the 1st bar was gone... I was bummed, because I was wondering if I'd make it to 50k.. ;-)
But then I noticed a bit into my drive that it was back? Hmmm..
Anyway, should be soon, I'd guess....

desiv
2012 Leaf SL - Silver (gone - traded in)
2017 Bolt LT - Red

DaveH001
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:50 am
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2016
Leaf Number: 2583

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Fri May 27, 2016 6:29 am

The time has come to post to this thread.
I first noticed the loss of my 12th capacity bar yesterday, though it could have disappeared sometime within the last couple of weeks.
It's a little disappointing because I've only put 1200 miles on the car (odometer 14700,) bought last December, so to me it's nearly new.
I don't have, or have access to, Leafspy or equivalent, so the usual caveats/complaints about not having true charge parameter values apply.
But...
I've been keeping the state of charge around 50-60% calculated by either: GOM reading divided by GOM reading at 100% charge (which I've only done once in order to get a nominal reading at "full" charge) or; by using the 'number of hours to 80% charge' subtracted from 17, divided by 17 and multiplied by 0.8 (formula adapted from viewtopic.php?f=38&t=7079)
The average daily change in state of charge is only 17% because the car is driven so little, 10 to 15 miles per day.
I'm trying to limit capacity loss by keeping the SOC as low as practical to control calendar loss and by keeping the daily change in SOC low to control cycling loss.
However, it is a model year 2012 which was put in service November of 2011 so calendar aging really does apply.
Using our local time of day pricing for off peak power ($0.0896/kWh), my average energy cost is $0.0194 per mile. This compares to (is 28% of) our other car (2008 Nissan Altima 2.4L ICE getting 33mpg at $2.30/gal) at $0.07 per mile. Quite acceptable, ignoring eventual battery replacement and assuming the government doesn't claw my savings back to replace, or more than replace the gas/road maintenance taxes I'm not paying.
I used a Killawatt meter initially to gauge actual power draw from the house mains (pretty constant at 1.34kWh per hour) for the first couple of weeks before reading horror stories about overheated outlets. Subsequently I've been using an assumed draw of 1.34kWh per hour to compare my average mi/kWh (3.6) to that reported by the car (4.9). If the car is accurately reporting energy out of the battery, this means my charging efficiency is about 70% (calculates to 73% but I don't believe that last significant digit can be justified, so I round.) The method for keeping the SOC lower than 80% is to take the number of miles to add to the GOM to get to about 50% SOC, divide it by my empirical miles added per hour of charge (about 6) to get the number of hours to charge. This takes less than a minute while shutting down in the garage.

I haz sad.
But I'm going to concentrate on things that aren't there:
Lack of maintenance.
Lack of concern for gas prices or stops at gas stations.
Lack of noise, vibration and harshness.
Lack of oil leaks and the accumulation of dirt and dust on leaked oil.

User avatar
tomsax
Forum Supporter
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:33 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Sep 2011
Leaf Number: 8847
Location: Sammamish, WA

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Fri May 27, 2016 11:02 am

Hi Dave,

Interesting post. Thanks for the great write-up.

You are clearly technical and dedicated to careful measurements and managing your battery pack. It's a pretty small investment to get LeafSpy going. I'm an iPhone user, but bought a cheap Android just so I could use LeafSpy. Now there's an iPhone version. It requires a specific BlueTooth LE dongle which is more expensive than the ones the Android can use, but either way the cost of hardware and software is still a bargain for what you get.

It would be helpful to add your experience to the Plug In America Leaf Owner Survey.

http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/

Early results from the survey show no measurable impact between charging to 80% vs. charging to 100% (see the survey paper). Not many people manage their SOC as carefully as you are, so it would be great to add a record of your experience over time to the survey.
Tom Saxton
Sammamish, WA

DaveH001
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:50 am
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2016
Leaf Number: 2583

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Fri May 27, 2016 5:50 pm

Hi Tom

tomsax wrote:Hi Dave,

Interesting post. Thanks for the great write-up.

You are clearly technical and dedicated to careful measurements and managing your battery pack. It's a pretty small investment to get LeafSpy going. I'm an iPhone user, but bought a cheap Android just so I could use LeafSpy. Now there's an iPhone version. It requires a specific BlueTooth LE dongle which is more expensive than the ones the Android can use, but either way the cost of hardware and software is still a bargain for what you get.


Yeah, I was surprised and pretty disappointed at losing a bar at 15000 miles while thinking I was being nice to the battery and when others are going twice or triple that....Drat. I hope the previous owner was mean to it and brought it to the edge of the 15% capacity loss just before I got it and I just nudged it over.
I know that LeafSpy is a useful tool in monitoring SOH of the Leaf. But I've been through so many obsolescence cycles of consumer electronics and software... It's not the money, I'm just not keen on dedicating the time to getting an Android device, learning enough about installing and using software on it for just scanning the Leaf battery. Generally I find the "you just type 'setup' and you're done" claim to be false frequently enough to make a smooth install & use less than a 50/50 proposition. Been there with more than one OBD laptop scanner package, Palm, Blackberry, going all the way back to a Radio Shack Model I pocket computer.
And I don't want to get too obsessive/compulsive on the battery. Knowing that cell pair #17 is a little undercharged compared to #18 and #16 isn't going to change how I treat the car and I don't have any control over the battery management system.
If there is a LeafSpy rental service, I'd be interested.

It would be helpful to add your experience to the Plug In America Leaf Owner Survey.

http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/


I'll do that. Modern BEVs have so little history compared to more than a century of ICE refinement that it's a good time to be an observer/participant. Things are changing fast.

Early results from the survey show no measurable impact between charging to 80% vs. charging to 100% (see the survey paper). Not many people manage their SOC as carefully as you are, so it would be great to add a record of your experience over time to the survey.


My strategy came from reading about failure modes of lithium battery technology. In a nutshell, it appears that you kill capacity with a high state of charge and elevated temperature. These conditions break down electrolyte and form a solid electrolyte interface that essentially plugs up the anode. I understand that there are other mechanisms including thermal & physical damage stemming from high current draw (maintaining constant power output) at low cell voltages (low SOC) and I'm trying to not go there by staying in the 30-60% SOC. I think the battery management system also protects the last 15% or so. It just doesn't let you use that part of the battery.
One thing I haven't found in my reading is anybody trying to remove the SEI once it forms. Lots of additive brews to try to keep it from forming but nobody trying to wash it off or dissolve it once it forms. Maybe I just wasn't reading in the right papers.
Nissan may have goofed by gambling that they didn't need active (expensive) pack temperature management. That's just one of a bazillion engineering decisions and it only came to the surface because they might have been just a little wrong. I have lots of sympathy for that team. It's a lot easier to be wrong than right.
I hope I can compensate some by keeping my SOC in the middle. Too high kills capacity, too low makes the car useless. We'll see how long it takes to lose the next (6.25%) bar. That'll at least give me 2 data points on my capacity loss curve.

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