What Happens to Carwings in January 2017?

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2k1Toaster

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2013
Messages
506
So Carwings relies on AT&T's 2G network which they say is going to be turned off in December of 2016. Since the modem is 2G, that means Nissan completely skimped out on the modem requirements and this will definitely require a hardware change. Who is going to pay for this? Or will the SIM allow a roaming charge that Nissan will pay for and piggy back TMobile or some other GSM 2G network for a couple years as a bandaid?

Just curious what is going to happen or if Nissan has said something already. I love the functionality, and they promote it constantly (like the "keep your cool" ads where they highlight turning on the AC remotely) so it doesn't make any sense to me that they chose a way obsolete technology to put in this new tech car that has a dead-date within the expected life model of most of the equipped Leafs...

What am I missing here, or did Nissan really screw up that badly? Are they going to be offering cellular modem upgrades in the future? I doubt a firmware change can address the issue because they are most likely on an old frequency band.
 
Probably just dies.
Just like the rest of the LEAF that will basically be disposable for a large % at 60,000 to 80,000 miles, six to eight years.
Nissan has a plan.
It's for you to buy a new LEAF or other electric vehicle they have by then.
Good plan for Nissan.
Not so good for six year old or newer LEAF.
 
TimLee said:
Probably just dies.
Just like the rest of the LEAF that will basically be disposable for a large % at 60,000 to 80,000 miles, six to eight years.

Being a bit harsh, aren't we? :roll:

My guess is one of two things will happen:
1) They will offer a "free" modem replacement/upgrade to the TCM if you sign up to continue CW service (much like a contract you might sign with a mobile operator), OR
2) They will offer a modem replacement/upgrade to the TCM paid for by the owner to enable further "free" use of CW (no contract/subscription required).

I seriously doubt they're going to just blow off the telematics capabilities of the Leaf, especially when it's an EV differentiator.
 
Stanton said:
I seriously doubt they're going to just blow off the telematics capabilities of the Leaf, especially when it's an EV differentiator.
You never know, you could be right. But I doubt it :cry:
 
Stanton said:
TimLee said:
Probably just dies.
Just like the rest of the LEAF that will basically be disposable for a large % at 60,000 to 80,000 miles, six to eight years.

Being a bit harsh, aren't we? :roll:

My guess is one of two things will happen:
1) They will offer a "free" modem replacement/upgrade to the TCM if you sign up to continue CW service (much like a contract you might sign with a mobile operator), OR
2) They will offer a modem replacement/upgrade to the TCM paid for by the owner to enable further "free" use of CW (no contract/subscription required).

I seriously doubt they're going to just blow off the telematics capabilities of the Leaf, especially when it's an EV differentiator.

I just don't understand why there is only a 2G radio in there... A quad band 4G modem is about $10 in single quantities and if you buy a reel of 10K, they drop in price to about $4 a piece. No big company, especially automotive, pays list price, so I bet Nissan could get 4G modems for the sub-$3 each range. 2G modems are about half that. So for saving $1.50 on modem selection, they are obsoleting hardware that costs tens of dollars and can be sold to the consumer for hundreds of dollars instead of just investing upfront.

It just doesn't make sense.
 
2k1Toaster said:
Stanton said:
TimLee said:
Probably just dies.
Just like the rest of the LEAF that will basically be disposable for a large % at 60,000 to 80,000 miles, six to eight years.

Being a bit harsh, aren't we? :roll:

My guess is one of two things will happen:
1) They will offer a "free" modem replacement/upgrade to the TCM if you sign up to continue CW service (much like a contract you might sign with a mobile operator), OR
2) They will offer a modem replacement/upgrade to the TCM paid for by the owner to enable further "free" use of CW (no contract/subscription required).

I seriously doubt they're going to just blow off the telematics capabilities of the Leaf, especially when it's an EV differentiator.

I just don't understand why there is only a 2G radio in there... A quad band 4G modem is about $10 in single quantities and if you buy a reel of 10K, they drop in price to about $4 a piece. No big company, especially automotive, pays list price, so I bet Nissan could get 4G modems for the sub-$3 each range. 2G modems are about half that. So for saving $1.50 on modem selection, they are obsoleting hardware that costs tens of dollars and can be sold to the consumer for hundreds of dollars instead of just investing upfront.

It just doesn't make sense.

This doesn't account for engineering/testing cost that would be needed to switch to new chip IF they were already starting from an exiting design.
 
epirali said:
This doesn't account for engineering/testing cost that would be needed to switch to new chip IF they were already starting from an exiting design.

Testing, yes. Engineering time is small. The car manufacturers do little design of their own now for these systems. They buy the full solution from a company, and sometimes already tested. Most of those modems communicate in standard UART fashion. So really no custom software would have to change. Just a different layout, and different antenna pattern. Maybe a weeks worth of time for a big business with lots of design checks. In reality a day for a good engineer. The testing and FCC requirements would be the hardest part, but the modems are already approved for use in lots of other cars and RF sensitive areas with detailed application notes.
 
2k1Toaster said:
epirali said:
This doesn't account for engineering/testing cost that would be needed to switch to new chip IF they were already starting from an exiting design.

Testing, yes. Engineering time is small. The car manufacturers do little design of their own now for these systems. They buy the full solution from a company, and sometimes already tested. Most of those modems communicate in standard UART fashion. So really no custom software would have to change. Just a different layout, and different antenna pattern. Maybe a weeks worth of time for a big business with lots of design checks. In reality a day for a good engineer. The testing and FCC requirements would be the hardest part, but the modems are already approved for use in lots of other cars and RF sensitive areas with detailed application notes.

That's not all there is though. There is compliance testing, probably FCC testing, write off from production, support, documentation who knows what else. That's not even talking about ANOTHER part in inventory and procurement system, compatibility to existing design, and retraining ALL people involved from assembly to repair.

Big companies are not just the cost of shoving in and engineering, that is just a small fraction.
 
I suspect that cars still in the three year/36K warranty will get a free modem upgrade and those outside of it MIGHT get a paid-for-by-owner upgrade... GM and their On-Star is a good case in point as they offered a modem upgrade when analogue cellular went away: "Eligible customers who purchase a prepaid, non-refundable, non-transferable 1-year OnStar Safe & Sound subscription for $199 (plus applicable subscription tax) will receive an equipment upgrade including parts and labor for only $15." So, effectively, they charged about 200 bucks...

Stanton said:
My guess is one of two things will happen:
1) They will offer a "free" modem replacement/upgrade to the TCM if you sign up to continue CW service (much like a contract you might sign with a mobile operator), OR
2) They will offer a modem replacement/upgrade to the TCM paid for by the owner to enable further "free" use of CW (no contract/subscription required).

I seriously doubt they're going to just blow off the telematics capabilities of the Leaf, especially when it's an EV differentiator.
 
epirali said:
2k1Toaster said:
epirali said:
This doesn't account for engineering/testing cost that would be needed to switch to new chip IF they were already starting from an exiting design.

Testing, yes. Engineering time is small. The car manufacturers do little design of their own now for these systems. They buy the full solution from a company, and sometimes already tested. Most of those modems communicate in standard UART fashion. So really no custom software would have to change. Just a different layout, and different antenna pattern. Maybe a weeks worth of time for a big business with lots of design checks. In reality a day for a good engineer. The testing and FCC requirements would be the hardest part, but the modems are already approved for use in lots of other cars and RF sensitive areas with detailed application notes.

That's not all there is though. There is compliance testing, probably FCC testing, write off from production, support, documentation who knows what else. That's not even talking about ANOTHER part in inventory and procurement system, compatibility to existing design, and retraining ALL people involved from assembly to repair.

Big companies are not just the cost of shoving in and engineering, that is just a small fraction.

I agree the testing is the major effort. Support and documentation are internal only. When was the last time a car tech opened up a box and replaced the IC with a soldering iron? If it fails they throw it away and get a new one.

We work with lots of the big car companies (including Nissan) and it really isn't too much work for them. Lots of work for the semiconductor houses when they want sub hundred part per billion failures...
 
2k1Toaster said:
I just don't understand why there is only a 2G radio in there... A quad band 4G modem is about $10 in single quantities and if you buy a reel of 10K, they drop in price to about $4 a piece. No big company, especially automotive, pays list price, so I bet Nissan could get 4G modems for the sub-$3 each range. 2G modems are about half that. So for saving $1.50 on modem selection, they are obsoleting hardware that costs tens of dollars and can be sold to the consumer for hundreds of dollars instead of just investing upfront.

It just doesn't make sense.

I wonder if it has to do with what the purchase price was when Nissan designed the system? When would that have been - 2009, maybe? Also, if I remember correctly, AT&T didn't roll out 4G in Dallas until the month after I got my Leaf but I might be confusing that with LTE.
 
jhm614 said:
2k1Toaster said:
I just don't understand why there is only a 2G radio in there... A quad band 4G modem is about $10 in single quantities and if you buy a reel of 10K, they drop in price to about $4 a piece. No big company, especially automotive, pays list price, so I bet Nissan could get 4G modems for the sub-$3 each range. 2G modems are about half that. So for saving $1.50 on modem selection, they are obsoleting hardware that costs tens of dollars and can be sold to the consumer for hundreds of dollars instead of just investing upfront.

It just doesn't make sense.

I wonder if it has to do with what the purchase price was when Nissan designed the system? When would that have been - 2009, maybe? Also, if I remember correctly, AT&T didn't roll out 4G in Dallas until the month after I got my Leaf but I might be confusing that with LTE.

Almost all of the "4G" radio modules out there are multi-band and multi-standard. That's why your phone works in Edge, HSDPA, HSPA+, and LTE modes depending on what available. Not just only in LTE mode or only in HSPA+ mode. BTW, that's 2G, 3G, 3.5G, and 4G for the more "common" naming.

So putting in a 4G radio would have enabled it to auto-select 2G-4G auto-magically. Then when 2G was switched off, they could pay the data company that buys from AT&T more to allow them to connect to 3G. You can limit the speeds at the carrier (obviously) so you can have a 4G radio, and AT&T can limit you to 2G speeds and generally you pay less. Then when the service goes away you pay for 3G or 4G with no hardware change other than AT&T updating their tower records.
 
2k1Toaster said:
Testing, yes. Engineering time is small. The car manufacturers do little design of their own now for these systems. They buy the full solution from a company, and sometimes already tested. Most of those modems communicate in standard UART fashion. So really no custom software would have to change. Just a different layout, and different antenna pattern. Maybe a weeks worth of time for a big business with lots of design checks. In reality a day for a good engineer. The testing and FCC requirements would be the hardest part, but the modems are already approved for use in lots of other cars and RF sensitive areas with detailed application notes.

That's not all there is though. There is compliance testing, probably FCC testing, write off from production, support, documentation who knows what else. That's not even talking about ANOTHER part in inventory and procurement system, compatibility to existing design, and retraining ALL people involved from assembly to repair.

Big companies are not just the cost of shoving in and engineering, that is just a small fraction.[/quote]

I agree the testing is the major effort. Support and documentation are internal only. When was the last time a car tech opened up a box and replaced the IC with a soldering iron? If it fails they throw it away and get a new one.

We work with lots of the big car companies (including Nissan) and it really isn't too much work for them. Lots of work for the semiconductor houses when they want sub hundred part per billion failures...[/quote]


No argument but documentation is still there, whether in vendor sourcing, purchasing, inventory management, assembly, production, field repair. I think you underestimate the ballast with the smallest motion...
 
A buck fifty cost is a lot for a car manufacturer. They go out of their way to save pennies... This is very common in the car business.

2k1Toaster said:
I just don't understand why there is only a 2G radio in there... A quad band 4G modem is about $10 in single quantities and if you buy a reel of 10K, they drop in price to about $4 a piece. No big company, especially automotive, pays list price, so I bet Nissan could get 4G modems for the sub-$3 each range. 2G modems are about half that. So for saving $1.50 on modem selection, they are obsoleting hardware that costs tens of dollars and can be sold to the consumer for hundreds of dollars instead of just investing upfront.
 
If it sounds like we are unnecessarily bitter about Nissan not doing anything, we've seen this with a number of other "simple" retrofits that they have refused to do: (heater button, tire pressure in the cluster display despite all the pressures being on the CAN bus, battery upgrades or improvements, upgraded chargers, etc)

Quite simply they want to lease you a new one as soon as possible. They are almost like disposable cars to them. I doubt they will make a new module that works with the old cars. That said Open Vehicle Monitoring System (OVMS) is probably where you'll need to look when AT&T's 2G shuts down. It's a proven system on the Roadster and a few are working to port it to the Leaf.
 
jhm614 said:
I wonder if it has to do with what the purchase price was when Nissan designed the system? When would that have been - 2009, maybe? Also, if I remember correctly, AT&T didn't roll out 4G in Dallas until the month after I got my Leaf but I might be confusing that with LTE.

I certainly hope they started working on the telematics design before 2009 for a 2010 car; you can't even design (and test/certify/etc) a toaster in that time, let alone a car.
The fact is, the only thing available to test in 2007/2008 (when they were probably designing this car with about a 100 new systems) was 2G/3G; the low-cost, highly integrated chip sets didn't really come along until after that, so cut Nissan some slack. I'm sure there will be a modem upgrade in the future.
 
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