avp
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Location: Alpedrete, Madrid, Spain

Range of two LEAFs very different in same 30 mile route

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:44 pm

Hi.
I have a 2013 LEAF from october 13 with 42k (kms) (26k miles)and today we have just bought another one to my wife. The new one is a Demo and we got it in a Nissan dealer near Madrid. I checked the battery with LBA and the SOH was 90%. I didnt like it so much because my "old" one still have 92%. However the price was no bad and we bought the car. We got it this afternoon. The "new" one was 99% charged and while they were preparing the car I charged the "old" one with the ChaDeMo. In the moment we leave the dealer place the old one was 82%. There are 50 kms (31,2 miles) from the dealer to my house.
And now the result: My old LEAF reached my house with 28%, that is the comsumption was 82-28=54 %, what is perfectly normal because my house is 350 m aprox higher tan the dealer (the speed was 70-60 miles/h). The "new one" reached home with 8%!!!!!!!! Wow!!!!!, so the comsuption was 91%. The two cars were all the time at the same speed (always in tándem), the heater was fixed at the same temperatura, and everything else was the same. I called inmediatly to the dealer and the told me to go tomorrow with the to check the car. I told the dealer to put my money back inmediatly but the battery is still reporting 90% of SOH.
Why do you think could be the problem to have this so different comsuptions (91 vs 54) if the LBA SOH is very similar?
Thank you so much!!!

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drees
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Re: Range of two LEAFs very different in same 30 mile route

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:02 am

Alignment, tire pressure, tires, HVAC usage could all cause significant differences in efficiency and thus usage.

Did you happen to reset the efficiency meter on each car before the trip so you could confirm that the efficiency was similar over the drive?
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

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RegGuheert
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Re: Range of two LEAFs very different in same 30 mile route

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:53 am

As drees said, driving style could make a big difference. If your wife was following you, then she may have been on and off the throttle more to try to maintain the proper distance.

Another issue can be that the cell balancing can make a very big difference in range. The newer LEAFs (MY2013+) are reportedly better in this regard, but who knows?

Also, there have been several LEAFs out there with ~90% SOH when new which still would travel just as far on a range test as other cars with a SOH of 100%. However, doing that required driving quite a few of the miles below LBW and VLBW. Read this thread for more details.

Finally, the battery temperatures would have been quite different in your test. The demo LEAF you purchased may have been charged some time ago and cooled off while the battery in your old LEAF would have been warm when you arrived and would have warmed further as you charged on the ChaDeMo.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

adric22
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Re: Range of two LEAFs very different in same 30 mile route

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:44 am

There's also the obvious question of battery calibration. A car that hasn't been driven much might not have a well calibrated battery. Meaning the instrumentation could be lying to you. There could be a lot more battery capacity left than the car is showing. In the same regard, there may be less available than the other car is showing. As the car is driven more, it may improve.
2013 Blue Nissan Leaf SV
2012 Summit White Chevy Volt

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: Range of two LEAFs very different in same 30 mile route

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:53 am

You haven't responded to Gary Gid's post concerning the apparently bad cell in the new car, from this post:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=19001&p=409360#p409360

Could be the problem.
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

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RegGuheert
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Re: Range of two LEAFs very different in same 30 mile route

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:14 am

If LeafSpy is correct in the picture in that thread, then cell-pair 4 will NEVER become balanced because it is shunted while cell-pair 3 is the only one not shunted. Cell-pair 4 (and no other cell-pair) should be shunted. Perhaps the cell-pair mapping setting in LeafSpy is not set correctly. I seriously doubt that the LEAF is shunting the wrong cell-pair.

While cell-pair 4 may have a problem (such as a loose connection), it's also possible that it is simply out-of-balance with the rest of the pack.

I will note that the car has fewer than 900 km on it and it has only ever had 10 QCs and 14 L2 charge cycles.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

NeilBlanchard
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Re: Range of two LEAFs very different in same 30 mile route

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:43 am

Which car was in the lead, on that trip?

avp
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Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:21 am
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Location: Alpedrete, Madrid, Spain

Re: Range of two LEAFs very different in same 30 mile route

Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:17 pm

Thank you for the answers.
After reading your expert opinions I tend to think that the problem could be this battery cell that seems to be "in bad condition".
I didnt check the battery temp but I have been driven the car in very different temperature conditions and the range affection has never been so big.
I didnt check the efficiency meter after the trip either. But I did check it this morning and the two cars had very similar efficiency with very different values of comsumption. This morning I drove the new one and my wife drove the old one, and again the comsumption of the new one was much higher (46% higher) which confirms that the driven style is not the reason. Most of the time I was driving in front, and the distance between the cars was big.

This morning we dropped the car in the Nissan dealer. They have been very nice because they stopped the purchase process until they find a solution to the problem. First of all they have offered us to check the battery and if the battery is ok, they offered us to use the car one week to check if the range is the same than in the other LEAF. If the result is negative, the offered us to change the car or put our money back. Those are great news for us. For these days they have given us another demo LEAF.
Finally, you are right DNAinaGoodWay, I didnt answer to Gary in the other thread. I m going to do it now. He seems to be right on his comment. Thanks.

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drees
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Re: Range of two LEAFs very different in same 30 mile route

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:26 pm

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:Could be the problem.

Definitely could be the problem - 3.976 V average is around 70% charged, but 3.903 V is around 50% charged.

RegGuheert wrote:Perhaps the cell-pair mapping setting in LeafSpy is not set correctly.

I've suspected this based on what I've seen in LeafSpy. I should try to compare what it shows compared to LeafDD when the shunts are relatively stable.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

avp
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Location: Alpedrete, Madrid, Spain

Re: Range of two LEAFs very different in same 30 mile route

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:35 pm

RegGuheert wrote:If LeafSpy is correct in the picture in that thread, then cell-pair 4 will NEVER become balanced because it is shunted while cell-pair 3 is the only one not shunted. Cell-pair 4 (and no other cell-pair) should be shunted. Perhaps the cell-pair mapping setting in LeafSpy is not set correctly. I seriously doubt that the LEAF is shunting the wrong cell-pair.

While cell-pair 4 may have a problem (such as a loose connection), it's also possible that it is simply out-of-balance with the rest of the pack.

I will note that the car has fewer than 900 km on it and it has only ever had 10 QCs and 14 L2 charge cycles.


Hi, thanks for your contribution to try too resolve this problema.
I would like to know what does "a shunted cell" exactly mean. From your comment I understand that shunted cells never become balanced. Also I have noticed that all these shunted cells are "orange" in the LBA while their values are negative in the Excel register file. In this car, the only non negative (and not shunted and no orange) cell is the cell number three.
Why cell 4 should be shunted and the only to be shunted. Because its value is the lowest one? Why some cells are shunted and others arent. (In my current LEAF there are a lot of cells shunted while others arent and they change all the time). Why do you think this can produce a battery capacity loss of about 40%-50%?

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