dhanson865
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Re: 2012 SL battery performance questions/issues with DTCs and leafspy data

Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:41 pm

bitflung wrote:the absolute best mi/kWh rating i've gotten over a 10+ mile trip, even driving <20mph on backroads, was 5.2mi/kWh. i can just about hit 5.0mi/kWh if i drive carefully even up to ~30mph, but i have to annoy the folks behind me as i slowly stagger away from stops or cruise to the next stop without using my brakes.

in my experience there doesn't seem to be any gain for driving less than ~20mph and nearly zero difference between 20 and 30mph. above 30 and i do see an immediate drop in mi/kWh. i haven't tracked how the lower end of the ratings scale at speed though since i so rarely drive on highways (and when i do i'm generally on a trip that is more important to me than tracking these things for future reference).


wow, you have some crappy tires or have your tire pressure way too low or have an alignment issue or you are just driving in the cold and haven't seen the joy of driving in the summer yet.

I get over 5 m/kwh doing 40. If I did less than 30 for any long trip I'd expect more like 6 or 7 miles per kwh.

Seriously at 12 mph on level ground with no AC/heat you should be seeing something like 8 or more miles per kwh.

keep in mind you have to use leafspy on a long repeatable test, the instrumentation on the dash will be very inaccurate for miles per kWh when regen is in play.

Try a flat track at 70F and see if you can't hit 10 miles per kWh if you have a couple of hours to kill and a flat track to use.

If you can't you need to check your alignment, and assuming it is OK, up the air pressure in your tires or buy tires with lower rolling resistance.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

bitflung
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 11:27 am
Delivery Date: 26 May 2015
Leaf Number: 023791
Location: Boston, MA

Re: 2012 SL battery performance questions/issues with DTCs and leafspy data

Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:06 pm

(reply from phone; please excuse brevity and formatting)

interesting. I had no idea my tires might suck so bad. they are certainly not stock but are what the dealership installed prior to buying it (again, used 2012 SL).

I've had it since last May and have absolutely tested in warm weather conditions.

having driven hybrids since 2001 I've been well aware that tire pressure matters so I regularly top off to 40psi.

I keep a 12v compressor with digital gauge in the vehicle at all times and once a month or so I hook it to every tire. I set all for to 40psi.

the mi/kwh I referred to previously are all dashboard readings. I've not extensively used lately to track data over many trips. I'm starting to do that now though, but it's still cold here (snowed over the weekend and is 39F as I write this)

if I could get 5+mi/kwh at 30-40mph that would become my day to day rating. I drive ~22mi/day at a max speed of ~35mph (average is ~20mph, so not much stopping either, just leisurely backroads with little traffic). my usual mi/kwh in warm weather is 3.9 to 4.2. in cold weather I'm usually seeing 3.0 to 3.7. again these are dashboard numbers not leaf spy.


[edit to add:
- I buy "lifetime alignment" at Firestone for every car; so have my alignment checked and corrected every 3-6 months. was barely out lay I checked near the start of the winter

- tires are "doral SDL 55 A". I saw another post suggesting a particular set of Michelin tires. would be frustrating to spend much money on tires with less than a year of ownership and only ~6k miles driven since taking possession of the car :(

end edit]

dhanson865
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Re: 2012 SL battery performance questions/issues with DTCs and leafspy data

Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:03 pm

uggh, I've never even heard of "doral SDL 55 A" but yes tires can cost you 10% range in the worst case at the same tire size, worse than 10% if they are some odd size or tread style.

205/55 is the OEM size for the 16" wheels but ideally you'd use the narrowest tire you can with a diameter that is correct to keep the speedometer accurate. The leaf will let you adjust the speedometer +2/-2% but the OEM 16" tires are the wrong diameter to start with.

Rolling resistance costs you more at slow speeds starting, stopping, and steady state. It means you can't coast/glide well, robs you of the chance to regen as much.

You could try and sell them as spare tires wheels and all to other leafers that need spare tires and get some 15" rims and new tires but it'd be a huge outlay if you are tight on cash. $90 a wheel + moving your TPMS sensors if they won't do that for free.

But if you do you get access to the go to tire for LRR. Michelin Energy Saver A/S 195/65R15.

Between the tire and wheel change you could save 20 or so pounds unsprung weight and increase your range while also improving handling.

The cheaper route but less optimal would be to put the P205/60R16 Energy Saver A/S on. You don't get the weight savings but you get the LRR and the 16" are rated for 51 psi vs the 15 rated for 44 psi.

Either way you have to stick to your guns and shop around because most tire shops will try and talk you into the brand of the day, or the Michelin Defender that they have in stock, or occasionally the Premier A/S which is a reasonable choice but then you still have to stick to your guns on getting the 205/60 instead of the 205/55 they'll want to put on.

The best fun is they'll tell you the Energy Saver A/S was discontinued or that it is about to be discontinued. I've been hearing both of those for over 5 years now (I think the tire has been around at least 8 years). Turns out there is now a Energy Saver A/S V2 on tirerack as a new tire.

I'm just sorry I didn't buy those 15" wheels I wanted before they sold out. I'll have to go with wheels at 15 pounds piece instead of the 13 pound version that sold out. I am happy to see new stock of Energy Saver A/S, I'll be pulling the trigger this year on a set.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

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drees
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Re: 2012 SL battery performance questions/issues with DTCs and leafspy data

Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:37 am

I'm surprised it took two pages to get here but yeah, the primary culprit is only 3.6 mi/kWh for a mix of 60mph and 30mph flat roads.

While 40F temps don't help, especially with the heater running, I would still expect At least 4.0 mi/kWh under those conditions.

The off-brand tires certainly don't help. I'd pump them up to the max pressure on the sidewall and see how that goes.

The LEAF is very sensitive to the rolling resistance of tires. I've had supposed LRR tires on for a year and a half and they are still 5-10% worse than the stock Ecopia EP422.

All your LeafSpy screens looked normal. It would be interesting to see cell voltages at lower SOC, say LBW or lower.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

bitflung
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 11:27 am
Delivery Date: 26 May 2015
Leaf Number: 023791
Location: Boston, MA

Re: 2012 SL battery performance questions/issues with DTCs and leafspy data

Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:37 pm

drees wrote:I'm surprised it took two pages to get here but yeah, the primary culprit is only 3.6 mi/kWh for a mix of 60mph and 30mph flat roads.

i don't mind taking the scenic route to get where i'm going :)

While 40F temps don't help, especially with the heater running, I would still expect At least 4.0 mi/kWh under those conditions.

i kept the cabin heater off 100% of the time except while charging once or twice. heater played no role at all. i did use steering wheel and seat heaters but i understand those are negligible.

The off-brand tires certainly don't help. I'd pump them up to the max pressure on the sidewall and see how that goes.

i'll give that a shot. as mentioned before i've been at 40lbs consistently since buying the car. i doubt max pressure is much higher though...

The LEAF is very sensitive to the rolling resistance of tires. I've had supposed LRR tires on for a year and a half and they are still 5-10% worse than the stock Ecopia EP422.

i had ecopia tires on my old 2010 honda insight (i've owned both the 2001 model which was awesome, and the 2010 model which was the worst car i've ever owned).

never in my life did i have a blowout prior to driving on ecopias. driving ecopias in that car i blew out so many tires it was ridiculous. if the dealership had delivered the car with ecopias i would have demanded they swap out with anything else before buying it. i went through 8-10 tires in ~2 years. absolutely ridiculous. tiny insignificant potholes blew out tires; driving over a rotted stick blew out a tire. my driving patterns were no different in that car than in my prior (2001 insight; potenza tires) or later (2012 leaf; weird brand X tires).

ecopia: never again. if i hadn't bought road hazard protection early on i likely would have swapped to something else. instead, since the tires were always practically new when they blew out, the replacements were very cheap.

All your LeafSpy screens looked normal. It would be interesting to see cell voltages at lower SOC, say LBW or lower.

i'll keep that in mind. i'm curious what an acceptable range is for max cell voltage differential?

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drees
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Re: 2012 SL battery performance questions/issues with DTCs and leafspy data

Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:46 pm

bitflung wrote:
While 40F temps don't help, especially with the heater running, I would still expect At least 4.0 mi/kWh under those conditions.

i kept the cabin heater off 100% of the time except while charging once or twice. heater played no role at all. i did use steering wheel and seat heaters but i understand those are negligible.

With the cabin heater off, that's even worse.

bitflung wrote:i'll keep that in mind. i'm curious what an acceptable range is for max cell voltage differential?

Depends on the SOC. Between LBW-100%, usually less than 25 mV. Down at VLBW that might increase to 50-75 mV. Below that the range can get quite large. There is a specific test called the CVLI test which is supposed to test for this.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

bitflung
Posts: 19
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Location: Boston, MA

Re: 2012 SL battery performance questions/issues with DTCs and leafspy data

Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:22 am

drees wrote:With the cabin heater off, that's even worse.

yeah, figures.
i'm now looking into replacement tires. I can't seem to find the RCC specs for any current LRR tires. everything is either subjective and a little stale or objective and VERY stale (2003).

spoke with local firestone and they are going to see if RCC info can be pulled for their own tires, but i haven't heard of anyone suggesting that "firestone champion fuel fighter" is on their shortlist of tires.

a set of four would cost me $530, installed. they didn't push me towards them though - i discussed my issues with the dorals and aside from offering to hunt for RRC specs their only position was that they can acquire pretty much any tire i ask for, but likely can't get this spec from other manufacturers.

i've reached out to a few tire companies but am not holding my breath.
seems that michelin energy savers are prefered by most, but i've also seen the "premier a/s" mentioned a few times. can't even see which ones michelin would suggest as favoring LRR/fuel though.

EDIT: i just found this tool. looks promising. haven't investigated much yet as i need to work today too :)
http://www.michelintruck.com/tools/roll ... omparison/

drees wrote:Depends on the SOC. Between LBW-100%, usually less than 25 mV. Down at VLBW that might increase to 50-75 mV. Below that the range can get quite large. There is a specific test called the CVLI test which is supposed to test for this.

i've downloaded all the 2012 service manual chapters and can't find a mention of CVLI anywhere. i pulled the 2011 evb chapter (ev battery) and don't see it in there either. do you have a link handy to some form of guidance on how this is done? searching the forums here i see lots of folks talking about it but haven't found an actual reference to the chapter/page or explicit instructions.

bitflung
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 11:27 am
Delivery Date: 26 May 2015
Leaf Number: 023791
Location: Boston, MA

Re: 2012 SL battery performance questions/issues with DTCs and leafspy data

Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:11 pm

drees wrote:
bitflung wrote:i'll keep that in mind. i'm curious what an acceptable range is for max cell voltage differential?

Depends on the SOC. Between LBW-100%, usually less than 25 mV. Down at VLBW that might increase to 50-75 mV. Below that the range can get quite large. There is a specific test called the CVLI test which is supposed to test for this.

I ran down to VLBW and pulled up leaf spy.
I grabbed screenshots but posting from mobile I'd a pain; I'll add them later. basic summary:

- down to 20 gids
- least spy DTE to 0.5kwh indicated 3.7mi
- 115 to 120mv max cell diff (from different screens, it bounced around a bit)
- 3 cells indicated as "weak"
- min/avg/max : 3.594/3.674/3.709v

I'm guessing this is worse than hoped but not too bad overall: disappointing but not bleak?

thanks,
-bit

TimLee
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Leaf Number: 2026
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Re: 2012 SL battery performance questions/issues with DTCs and leafspy data

Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:30 pm

bitflung wrote:... never in my life did i have a blowout prior to driving on ecopias. driving ecopias in that car i blew out so many tires it was ridiculous. if the dealership had delivered the car with ecopias i would have demanded they swap out with anything else before buying it. i went through 8-10 tires in ~2 years. absolutely ridiculous. tiny insignificant potholes blew out tires; driving over a rotted stick blew out a tire. my driving patterns were no different in that car than in my prior (2001 insight; potenza tires) or later (2012 leaf; weird brand X tires).

ecopia: never again. if i hadn't bought road hazard protection early on i likely would have swapped to something else. instead, since the tires were always practically new when they blew out, the replacements were very cheap.
...

Ecopia sidewalls are weak.
Clearly they are inappropriate for your driving on Boston roads.

But many people have driven a long ways on them without blowouts.

I've driven 33,000 miles nearly five years.
The first OEM set mileage was poor.
But the improved Ecopia has a much higher treadwear rating.

TaylorSFGuy is probably approaching 180,000 miles on only two sets of Ecopias on 2011 LEAF.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

TimLee
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
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Re: 2012 SL battery performance questions/issues with DTCs and leafspy data

Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:36 pm

bitflung wrote:...
i've downloaded all the 2012 service manual chapters and can't find a mention of CVLI anywhere. i pulled the 2011 evb chapter (ev battery) and don't see it in there either. do you have a link handy to some form of guidance on how this is done? searching the forums here i see lots of folks talking about it but haven't found an actual reference to the chapter/page or explicit instructions. ...

Detailed explanation and discussion at viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12789&p=308501&hilit=cvli#p308501.

Service manual says test is for when customer complains of range loss.
But most dealers will not run the test unless the customer pays for it.

Unclear whether dealer will then replace the modules that have bad cells and whether Nissan would cover that under warranty.

I have yet to read any posts saying anyone has confronted Nissan on it.

But note that the LEAF Spy Pro developer believes the original test generates unnecessary inaccurate bad cell reports.

The pending LEAF Spy Pro update will only report bad cells when there is a much higher cell voltage differential.

In my case I used to show eight cells.
As capacity fell I only rarely saw two.
With the LEAF Spy Pro change there will be zero.

Early on some of us thought CVLI might be means to get battery replacement outside capacity warranty.

With experience to date that appears unlikely.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

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