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DuncanCunningham
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Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:12 am

i didn't read everything but what are your tire pressures? I never go below 42psi (44+ normally) on mine and they wear very even at that pressure.. any thing lower and I've had outside wear too fast and Miles per kwh getting worse. My older tires that are worn to about replaceable tread give me much more range.. so new tires and if they are not at a high enough PSI might drag your new car range down.. but heater, speed and wind probably did the damage on that one.

Don't worry about the two pedantic fellows in here harping about about your terminology and correcting you all the time.. this is their hobby and lose sleep at night about their clocks being 1 min off. the rest of the things they share and help you with you are totally worth it though. loves to the OCDs.
Statler: Wake up you old fool. You slept through the show.
Waldorf: Who's a fool? You watched it.

2015 Leaf S (leased until May 2018, Bought out in Jan 2017)
2012 Leaf SL (purchased May 2015)

SageBrush
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Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:56 am

DuncanCunningham wrote:Don't worry about the two pedantic fellows in here harping about about your terminology and correcting you all the time.. this is their hobby and lose sleep at night about their clocks being 1 min off. the rest of the things they share and help you with you are totally worth it though. loves to the OCDs.

I'm sorry you do not understand, but I hope OP can: using correct units aids in communication. Not only does it prevent misunderstandings, it facilitates understanding. If I do not have to waste time and effort parsing a poorly communicated question I (and I presume others) are more likely to spend time and effort trying to give an informative answer.

OP can view an effort to communicate clearly as self interest.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:26 pm

The point is that the 150 mile range stated is extremely optimistic IMO because my range was 112 after making many adjustments already to increase it to that number, including driving slower, taking back roads that are slower, and using the heat sparingly. Coming up 25% short of EPA range after making all of those concessions on what is a very average typical weather situation tells me a lot of people will be disappointed in the range.


I'm fairly sure that the EPA range test doesn't involve driving 75MPH in the rain. There are people living in areas with dangerously high freeway speed limits who think that going too fast is the norm, and that this norm should apply to the rest of the country. I get that having everyone else driving 75 or 80 makes it hard to drive 65, but the problem still lies more with the speed limits and lack of enforcement than with the EPA range test, which has improved in the last few years. Although it should include a Winter rating...
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2k1Toaster
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Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:41 pm

LeaferSutherland wrote:
Stanton wrote:
LeaferSutherland wrote:I will check out the speed charts. Unfortunately I can’t go any slower on this trip. Was already holding up traffic going 55-60 on back roads (which I was on in order to go slower- normally would take interstate the whole route). On interstate I was going 70-75 which is already 5-10 mph under the speed of traffic. Speed limit is 75 and traffic is usually about 5 over that. Was not worried about that speed in rain at all on interstate and it was only raining for a small part of the trip. Not a monsoon or anything. Pretty routine driving around here and we deal with much worse in winter.


You lost me at "Unfortunately I can’t go any slower on this trip". Throw in wind and rain, and any EV owner would know these are all negatives for miles/kWh. Not saying everyone should go as slow as I do on the highway (~60 mph), but you were at the extreme on many factors.


OK, I’ll rephrase it. I could go slower at the risk of my safety and adding even more time to a trip that I’ve already added a half hour of extra time to... But if I really need to make any more compromises beyond the many I already made, I would rather just pay the extra $15 and take my pickup truck. The trade off just isn’t there at that point. This isn’t my daily commute, it’s a few times a year. Also note I made it at the speed I was going without recharge so it was a success so no need to go any slower. The point is that the 150 mile range stated is extremely optimistic IMO because my range was 112 after making many adjustments already to increase it to that number, including driving slower, taking back roads that are slower, and using the heat sparingly. Coming up 25% short of EPA range after making all of those concessions on what is a very average typical weather situation tells me a lot of people will be disappointed in the range. I felt I came into this with eyes wide open. I expected that on this same trip at Christmas when it might be 10 degrees, windy and heavy snowfall I would fall short of the EPA range by about that much. With this new information I’m now wondering if I could even make it 50 miles in those conditions. Keep in mind I did a lot of reading and research first. Most people will not do that. The enthusiasts in this forum are far more educated on this subject than I am but I’m far more educated than average car consumer and I know more than any of the car sales reps that I spoke with on the subject. There is a real disconnect here.

And don’t get me wrong, still love the car. Wouldn’t trade it for anything. This trip is an anomaly for me but it was also arbitrary measuring stick for us before opting for EV. If it is not practical for this trip, I’m not going to lose any sleep. For now it works. Maybe as I learn how to save more energy I can offset future battery degradation too. If not, it’s not going to matter much to me.


Don't worry, there is a huge gap in reality of speeds for those in flyover country versus the coasts. My Leaf sits in CO where the posted 75mph speed limit means the 18-wheelers are doing 80mph in the right lane of a 2 lane highway. Even in rain and snow, the traffic goes 80mph because it is normal. Compare that to places with 60mph limits on the interstate and when the ground starts to frost they declare an emergency and nobody goes above walking speed on the roads. When you live and operate a vehicle in certain conditions it can be hard to understand why it doesn't work that way in other places as a gut reaction.

In my area if I drive 80mph in the right lane, I am following the slow traffic tractor-trailers. The advice of slowing down behind a truck is being used, but the trucks aren't doing 50mph, they're doing 80mph and still holding up traffic whizzing by at 90mph+. That's just the way it is. I can't actually use my Leaf in the left lane through "the gap" in Colorado because it tops out around 94mph and it doesn't keep up with the traffic. I can't begin to imagine the consequences of driving 94mph on a coastal road in Maine or something. You'd probably be ticketed and thrown in jail forever for being so dangerously over the speed of everyone else.

I just got back from way up North (not in the USA) where the posted speed limit was 90kph but logging trucks and oversized loads with mining equipment are flying down the road at about 140kph. Some WITH police escorts for being oversized. Sometimes slowing down briefly for a corner because the entire road was ice-pack but with the spring thaw some was slushy. I was (I thought) booking it at about 130kph, but I only passed about 2 vehicles the entire trip. I was the one being passed.

For an example here is part of the road. Just ice.

Image

The 24KWh Leaf is about a 60mi vehicle in good conditions with 75-80mph driving areas so the 30KWh Leaf would be about a 75mi vehicle. That's my rule of thumb for when I take a gasser versus the Leaf on the longer journeys.
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DuncanCunningham
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Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:29 pm

SageBrush wrote:
DuncanCunningham wrote:Don't worry about the two pedantic fellows in here harping about about your terminology and correcting you all the time.. this is their hobby and lose sleep at night about their clocks being 1 min off. the rest of the things they share and help you with you are totally worth it though. loves to the OCDs.

I'm sorry you do not understand, but I hope OP can: using correct units aids in communication. Not only does it prevent misunderstandings, it facilitates understanding. If I do not have to waste time and effort parsing a poorly communicated question I (and I presume others) are more likely to spend time and effort trying to give an informative answer.

OP can view an effort to communicate clearly as self interest.


oh, I understand you. Just let's be nice to everyone, including each other.
Statler: Wake up you old fool. You slept through the show.
Waldorf: Who's a fool? You watched it.

2015 Leaf S (leased until May 2018, Bought out in Jan 2017)
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Nubo
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Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:40 pm

2k1Toaster wrote:...I can't actually use my Leaf in the left lane through "the gap" in Colorado because it tops out around 94mph and it doesn't keep up with the traffic. ...


Image
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

Reddy
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Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:45 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
The point is that the 150 mile range stated is extremely optimistic IMO because my range was 112 after making many adjustments already to increase it to that number, including driving slower, taking back roads that are slower, and using the heat sparingly. Coming up 25% short of EPA range after making all of those concessions on what is a very average typical weather situation tells me a lot of people will be disappointed in the range.


I'm fairly sure that the EPA range test doesn't involve driving 75MPH in the rain. There are people living in areas with dangerously high freeway speed limits who think that going too fast is the norm, and that this norm should apply to the rest of the country. I get that having everyone else driving 75 or 80 makes it hard to drive 65, but the problem still lies more with the speed limits and lack of enforcement than with the EPA range test, which has improved in the last few years. Although it should include a Winter rating...
OP: Welcome, and thank you for driving electric. Please input your approximate location into your profile so that we can help on other questions (I'm not sure if Sutherland is suggesting NE or TX or nothing at all). So, here's the EPA test: (https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml) Image
As LeftieBiker said, it doesn't even get close to 70-75 mph, rain or not. Actually, I think you did pretty good for such speeds and conditions. The EPA "real world" conditions are for mixed City/Highway use in "Low speeds in stop-and-go urban traffic" and "Free-flow traffic at highway speeds" Top Speed: 56 mph city and 60 mph highway with an Average Speed 21.2 mph (city) 48.3 mph (highway). Unfortunately, those EPA numbers are NOT even close to your drive and probably will never be close to the way most people drive. The 21 mph in the city is about my average (yes, those stop lights really do cut the average down to bicycling speeds), but most free-flowing highways are at least 65 mph. I still think that on a 80 mph interstate you can still safely drive 60 mph. Don't try to give me that crap about "everybody is doing 90", cause it's not true. There are always slower drivers and trucks, even in CA.

Unfortunately, you probably won't be able to make that drive in 2-3 years (depending again on location and conditions during the drive), especially if the 40 KWh battery degrades at the same rate as the 30 KWh battery. Those are the facts sorry. Physics matter and high speeds, low temps, and wind/rain/snow cut range, sometimes in half. If that's a problem, then you have the right to send another $15 to the oil plutocracy. Personally, I will NEVER buy gas again, and I will gladly go a bit slower to make my next destination. Unfortunately, at this point in the development, no EV is really capable of long-distance travel except Tesla (which is still lacking in some areas), since such travel requires thermal protection of the battery and properly-spaced quick charge stations. This does cut down on my options, so I'm waiting with my 40-50 mi City 2011 Leaf. This weekend I'll test drive the 2018 Leaf, but I'm still waiting until the longer range 60 KWh version is available.
Reddy
2011 SL; 9 bar, 45.80 AHr; 45,000 mi; rcv'd Aug 18, 2011
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:51 pm

LeaferSutherland wrote:So yesterday I did my first long drive with our new 2018 Leaf. I will list all the data I have and then I’m curious if this is in line with what you guys think is normal.

Trip is 100 miles. When we bought car this trip was kind of a measuring stick for us. It’s a trip we do 4-6 times a year so not a huge deal to just take ICE but at same time, this was one reason we didn’t buy prior generation Leaf. Wanted to at least be able to do this trip. There will be at least another 6-10 trips similar distance for us in a year and doing this without a charge up seemed like minimum for us for electric vehicle.

Outside temp- 34 to 42
Wind- pretty windy and gusty at times. Cross wind most of the time. Fighting it for 1/4 of trip both ways because it changed so it was directly at us but never directly behind us. 15-20 mph plus gusts up to 30 or so.

Heater- pre warmed car at start of trip while plugged in. Then ran it in defrost mode because of fog on first 1/3 of trip. Turned heater off when I could and ran it with partial recirculating mode. Seemed like got 3.0 MPK when heat was on normal but when conserving it more got up to 4.0 and averages 3.4 for trip. Kept it around 60 degrees so not warm but OK with a jacket on.

No use of heated seats or steering

Rain 1/4 of time so windshield wiper use then

Radio on medium low volume 85% of time

Average of 500 pounds total cargo including driver and passengers

Speed - expressway 70-75 for 25%, back roads at 55-60 for 60% of time. Slower speed side roads at 30-40 MPH for 15% of time.

Overall- felt like I was using minimal heat, minimal radio volume and driving slower and taking more back roads vs expressway compared to “normal” way I would drive. Got 3.4 average MPK which is pretty good for higher speeds, rain and heat IMO- at least compared to what I usually get in those conditions when I’m not trying to conserve.

So here is the only disappointing part - got back with 9% range (13 miles maybe?) on guessometer. Got warning on dash as I approached my driveway.

So it “worked” for this trip but barely. Many times of the year it’s much colder or really hot where we will need AC. I conserved everything more than normal yet looks like my useable range is around 100 miles. I would have thought before buying and testing that range would be better than that. The conditions where I could go 150 to me are so rare, that’s a fantasy number. I would think if you told average person that range was 100 miles with this car they would still be surprised / disappointed, because I had to work pretty hard to save energy to get about 110 on what I consider a typical day and I think going 100 was cutting it pretty close considering the consequences of being wrong. I guess the disconnect for me really is this- seems like 3.4 MPK would get me around 136 mile range not 113. Am I doing the math wrong or is the car doing it wrong?


This has to be one of weirder posts I've seen in a long time. Your concepts of EV usage is peculiar to say the least.

First off, let me ease your concerns. There is a significant hidden reserve so your "9%" will get you well more than you think but it also looks like you have noticed the discrepancy.

2nd off; you made it and even if you only had 9% left, that is a HUGE margin. You imply some how that you sacrificed a lot of energy usage and that is...well misguided. Heat at 60º is a good choice but implying that was a sacrifice? What do you want to wear? shorts and a t-shirt?

Saving on radio volume? Seat heaters? What did you think you were saving? You say that the weather was "better" than what "could be" and that will always be true but the reality is you made the trip in conditions that was HIGHLY unfavorable to EVs.

If you are that concerned, drive slower on the freeway. Its multilane, to hell with anyone else. You don't have to break the law just because everyone else is doing it.

The reality is the car will make it easily if you want it to.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
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SageBrush
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Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:44 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:This has to be one of weirder posts I've seen in a long time. Your concepts of EV usage is peculiar to say the least.

First off, let me ease your concerns. There is a significant hidden reserve so your "9%" will get you well more than you think but it also looks like you have noticed the discrepancy.
.

Your slightly veiled accusations of OP not knowing how to drive the car and to not understand it are a bunch of hooey if the best you can do is talk about "significant" unreported range.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DougWantsALeaf
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Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:52 am

I know this makes me sound like a grandpa, but 55 is about as fast as you want to drive the leaf. On a temperate day at 55if carefully driven, no wind, no havoc, high psi, you can do 5 miles per kWh (13 leaf). The 18 should be able to do a bit better. 37kWh *5 = 185 miles in perfect conditions. But 65 or 75 is out of the question.
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