SageBrush
Posts: 2792
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:11 am

@Reddy,

Your post of the EPA test is correct but you neglected to mention that the Monrooney (sp?) sticker incorporates a 30% discount off the raw results. That is why the highway fuel economy is said to represent 65 mph driving (on dry roads, etc.)
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
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2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeaferSutherland
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:26 am
Delivery Date: 22 Feb 2018

Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:47 am

People keep bringing up the 75 mph as if that was the speed of this trip. The vast majority of it was 55-60. As for rain, again, very short part of trip. Kind of funny that I get lectured about using the proper terminology yet people here can’t seem to grasp the facts that I clearly conveyed.

Regarding temp- yes, 60 is lower than what I and every other person I’ve ever met sets thermostat in winter. No, didn’t want to wear shorts. Is that shorts weather where you live really? Maybe if I’m outside being active but not just sitting in a car.

Re: conditions being “bad” because rain and a little cool outside. I’m not sure but I feel like this might be about average for me and maybe better than average for conditions. It’s hot and humid all summer and will be using AC. Winter gets much colder. Maybe AC doesn’t use much power comparatively, I will find out. This is new to me as I said.

Re: keeping radio off and heated seats / steering. Sorry, again, new to me as I said so wasn’t sure of exact power draw of these items. It seemed to me in my experiments so far that seat heat was in fact noticeable w regard to range. Must have been mistaken. But like I said, my other reason for keeping that heat off is to make it even for all occupants so I’m not warm while people in back are feeling cold. Radio was on most of trip, turned it off a couple times. Wasn’t sure of power draw of the equipment at the time.

Re: 9% being a big cushion. Not to me. Not when car becomes a brick when you run out. Not going to hitch hike up the road to a gas station.

As I’ve stated before, I feel it necessary to mention that we just love this car. Range is totally fine for us. Just a bit less than I expected at higher speeds and using heat.

Also- thank you for all of the comments and helpful suggestions. I am not an enthusiast, just a car owner. I don’t think I have any more need for anything here and don’t particularly enjoy the conversation tone so this is goodbye.

kennethbokor
Gold Member
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:35 pm
Delivery Date: 30 May 2018
Location: Caledon, ON Canada
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Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:49 pm

LeaferSutherland wrote:People keep bringing up the 75 mph as if that was the speed of this trip. The vast majority of it was 55-60. As for rain, again, very short part of trip. Kind of funny that I get lectured about using the proper terminology yet people here can’t seem to grasp the facts that I clearly conveyed.

Regarding temp- yes, 60 is lower than what I and every other person I’ve ever met sets thermostat in winter. No, didn’t want to wear shorts. Is that shorts weather where you live really? Maybe if I’m outside being active but not just sitting in a car.

Re: conditions being “bad” because rain and a little cool outside. I’m not sure but I feel like this might be about average for me and maybe better than average for conditions. It’s hot and humid all summer and will be using AC. Winter gets much colder. Maybe AC doesn’t use much power comparatively, I will find out. This is new to me as I said.

Re: keeping radio off and heated seats / steering. Sorry, again, new to me as I said so wasn’t sure of exact power draw of these items. It seemed to me in my experiments so far that seat heat was in fact noticeable w regard to range. Must have been mistaken. But like I said, my other reason for keeping that heat off is to make it even for all occupants so I’m not warm while people in back are feeling cold. Radio was on most of trip, turned it off a couple times. Wasn’t sure of power draw of the equipment at the time.

Re: 9% being a big cushion. Not to me. Not when car becomes a brick when you run out. Not going to hitch hike up the road to a gas station.

As I’ve stated before, I feel it necessary to mention that we just love this car. Range is totally fine for us. Just a bit less than I expected at higher speeds and using heat.

Also- thank you for all of the comments and helpful suggestions. I am not an enthusiast, just a car owner. I don’t think I have any more need for anything here and don’t particularly enjoy the conversation tone so this is goodbye.



I have to agree with "LeaferSutherland", so many on this site are quick to jump on someone's opinion and not make this a friendly and constructive site. Everyone wants to point out they are right in some aspect and get nasty and tone is not nice.

Certainly makes me think twice about posting anything relevant or what I think might be helpful or cause for thought.
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New Leaf Owner: Just ordered Feb 24 2018, 2018 Leaf SL in Jade Frost. Expected ETA by May 30 2018.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13212
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:26 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:I know this makes me sound like a grandpa, but 55 is about as fast as you want to drive the leaf. On a temperate day at 55if carefully driven, no wind, no havoc, high psi, you can do 5 miles per kWh (13 leaf). The 18 should be able to do a bit better. 37kWh *5 = 185 miles in perfect conditions. But 65 or 75 is out of the question.


I did a bit of a road test yesterday and hit 4.5 miles per kwh. Weather was mostly good. some rain in the morning. 75% of trip down with Cruise control set to 65 mph (or about 67 on the analog speedometer :roll: )

Granted had some slow downs driving thru Portland but that only involved about 30-35 miles of the trip and yeah, had a bunch of 75 mph as well ;)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9387
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:51 pm

People keep bringing up the 75 mph as if that was the speed of this trip. The vast majority of it was 55-60. As for rain, again, very short part of trip. Kind of funny that I get lectured about using the proper terminology yet people here can’t seem to grasp the facts that I clearly conveyed.


It's true that you made it clear that you only did 75MPH for 25% of the time. It's also true, though, that if you had done 65MPH that 9% cushion would have been more like 15%. It was the combination of pushing the car to a point where energy consumption was high, and complaining that 9% left wasn't enough, that led to the negative response here. It also didn't help that you left the seat and wheel heaters off while complaining about the car being cold. (Nissan needs to make it clear in their literature that the seat and wheel heaters don't cost range.) It was probably too negative, though, and at least some of us will try to be nicer in the future.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeaferSutherland
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:26 am
Delivery Date: 22 Feb 2018

Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:35 pm

I don’t think I complained about being cold. I hope it didn’t come off that way. I think I indicated that I set temp lower than what I normally would as a sacrifice to get more range. I really done care, I can handle any temp. The point was that the range was what it was AND I was doing things different than I would in ICE vehicle already. All the advice about how to get more range, etc was never asked for. I got plenty of range, made it no problem. I get how this stuff works. I can perform experiments. I understand the variables involved. I’m just saying that I hoped real world range would be better than it is. And it’s also totally fine that it’s lower than I expected, won’t impact me at all.

I also think I mentioned that running seat heat so that I’m comfortable at a lower temperature to save energy while my children in the back seat that doesn’t have heated seats (not an option on 2018) are then colder comparatively is not something I want to do. I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that I totally get the idea of using that localized heat to save energy overall and when nobody is in the back that’s what I do, yet here we are on page 4 and someone is pointing this out again. This is kind of my point, can’t seem to get my information out to this group without people getting the wrong idea or misunderstanding me. I’ve been involved for decades in various online discussion groups with various hobbies. Don’t have this problem anywhere else.

Lastly, would you really do that? Run an uncomfortable cabin temp for other passengers while you’re nice and warm using seat heat that they don’t have available to them? Seems like a dick move to me.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9387
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:13 pm

Lastly, would you really do that? Run an uncomfortable cabin temp for other passengers while you’re nice and warm using seat heat that they don’t have available to them? Seems like a dick move to me.


This is the sort of prose that gets you negative responses. In my case, if I used only seat heat and low cabin heat, my feet would freeze - I have bad circulation. You raise an interesting question, though: is it selfish to run your seat heater in an EV if someone in the back seat has none? I guess I'd respond with "Is it wise for the driver of an EV to lower his or her body temperature in order to not seem a "dick"? Cold is sort of like weak beer: it slows your responses down without it being obvious enough for you to notice.

And needless to say, those of us who grew up before the Eighties also tend to chuckle at the idea of our parents - especially our fathers - being so solicitous of our comfort. My father felt no need for A/C, or even fans, so I grew up with none in the house or the cars. For my 10th birthday, I asked - nay, BEGGED - for an electric fan. I still have that fan. I wouldn't willingly deprive my hypothetical children of heat, but if necessary I'd make sure they they were wearing winter clothes, including warm socks. The driver is the most important person in the car when it comes to safety.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeaferSutherland
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:26 am
Delivery Date: 22 Feb 2018

Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:43 pm

I didn’t lead off with saying, dick move, just getting frustrated at this point in the thread.

I didn’t make myself or passengers colder, I kept temperature cooler than I normally would in ICE vehicle. I told family before we started trip to dress warm because I wasn’t sure about range and we might need to keep temp lower than we usually do.

But that’s a good point on lower temp for driver.

For seat heat my rule is that I use it when car is cold to get me warmer faster. I don’t see any reason for me to not take advantage of the quicker warm up just because it’s not available for all passengers. On a longer trip, I won’t use it when others are in the car that don’t have it. As the driver and “host” I’m in control of the climate so I want it to feel the same for me as it does for my passengers so that I will adjust temp controls so that we are all comfortable. If it gets to warm or cold, I will feel it like they do and adjust.

dm33
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Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:54 pm

SageBrush wrote:
DuncanCunningham wrote:Don't worry about the two pedantic fellows in here harping about about your terminology and correcting you all the time.. this is their hobby and lose sleep at night about their clocks being 1 min off. the rest of the things they share and help you with you are totally worth it though. loves to the OCDs.

I'm sorry you do not understand, but I hope OP can: using correct units aids in communication. Not only does it prevent misunderstandings, it facilitates understanding. If I do not have to waste time and effort parsing a poorly communicated question I (and I presume others) are more likely to spend time and effort trying to give an informative answer.

OP can view an effort to communicate clearly as self interest.

Mixing up kw and kWh is very common when ICE folks discuss EVs. It is important to keep them straight. It causes major confusion when they're mixed up. Its not always clear from context. The LEAFs battery has a capacity of 40kwh while chademo has a max charge rate around 45kw. Since the values are close, if context is left out major confusion results. Another example, Tesla Model S can have a battery capacity of 100 kWh while superchargers charge at a rate of something over 100 kw.

Its similar to the difference between gallons and miles per gallon. Someone saying my car takes 10 gallons would clearly mean gas tank size, but if someone accidentally says my car gets 10 miles per gallon is completely different. The comparison doesn't exactly match, but close enough. kw indicates rate of power transfer, either use as in power consumed by motor or heat (equivalent of gallons consumed per hour, ie a rate of use), or replenished as in recharging or filling up the tank (gallons per minute to fill the tank).

There's a huge difference between using cabin heat vs seat heaters. Running AC & cabin heat (defrost) can consume more than 100x the energy of using seat heaters. Radio use is not in any way a significant power drain regardless of volume.

Defrost is so much of an issue in EVs that some manufacturers (I think Mercedes) have looked at windshield heaters.

Air friction is directly proportional to speed. If you drive twice the speed to cover the same distance, it will take twice the power. Physics. Works the same way in an ICE.

Electric motors are actually very efficient regardless of power or acceleration. Stop light racing doesn't hurt range that much as long as you use regenerative braking (not friction brakes) and keep the same top speed. ICE are much less efficient at higher power output and particularly quickly changing desired power, ie suddenly hitting the gas.
Last edited by dm33 on Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SageBrush
Posts: 2792
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
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Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 first real world range test- disappointed a little

Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:07 pm

dm33 wrote: directly proportional to speed. If you drive twice the speed to cover the same distance, it will take twice the power. Physics. Works the same way in an ICE.

The energy requirement per distance needed to overcome air friction as speed changes is indeed a quadratic relationship but the tyres stay about the same and the drive train is linear. At the speeds we are usually discussing (60 - 80 mph) a graph of Wh/mile Vs speed has a somewhat surprisingly quite shallow curve. If you just look at 5 mph differences and are not paying attention you might wrongly state that the change is linear.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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