Leaf Range in Colder Weather

One reviewer's experience in colder weather: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Nissan-Leaf-a-comfortable-fun-car-to-drive-1007422.php#page-1

Very consistent with the range reduction Volt drivers are seeing in different climates. On the Left Coast high 30s maybe even low 40s. In the Northeast mid 20s or even low 20s. Almost 2x. Given they hype of the "100 mile range", there may be a method to Nissan's delay in delivering cars -- cars delivered in summer will have a much better chance of reaching that range.

Despite all the criticism leveled at it, overall the EPA's estimated range of 73 miles looks accurate.

I saw this over on the GM-Volt forum and commented there, but to briefly restate what I said there, I think there are some key facts missing from the article. I calculated that, over a 24 hour course, he should have been plugged in for at least 21 hours per day. With 120 volt @ 12 amp charging, that should have provided the car with over 30 KWh of energy, more than enough for his 50 mile round-trip commute.

So either the author is failing to provide some key information or he's breaking laws of science...

For that kind of temp and daily driving distance, he certainly needs a L2 EVSE to have some needed buffer. Too bad he didn't have access to it.

I read that review earlier - sounded like a bit of "hit piece".

The reason why 73 miles is not correct is that people with not predominantly freeway trips in cold weather are getting more than 80 miles. EPA rating is supposed to be an "avg" range , not some kind of 25% percentile worst range.

"Like a dummy, though, I decided to take the car with me to lunch, driving it about 10 miles and interrupting the daylong charge."

"Conclusion: The Leaf isn't for everyone, as Nissan Chairman and CEO Carlos Ghosn already had told me during an interview a few months earlier. And it's certainly not the car for me,"

The REAL conclusion: the Leaf isn't for stupid people, of which I admittedly am.

What an idiot. :evil:

Punch it an warm up the pack

i believe the article. i charge at 110 volts and it is slow and will not recharge overnight for what he is doing and it wont work for him because he does not want it to work for him.

he is right, the heat is a poor design and could have been better. the Prius plug in will use a heat exchange system reputed to be more efficient...but then again, not sure that the Leaf has the same "heat" supply to work with. with the heat running, its easy to lose 15 miles of range since it can draw more than 4½ KWH. in a RT 60 minute commute, that is about 15018 miles of range dedicated to heat.

drive 70 mph, that is an increase of....18% more power to move the car than driving 60 mph. that is another 15-18 miles of range. so he would be running 80+% of the pack daily without the lunch runs.

with the lunch runs of "10 miles" i suspect that might be a one way trip and a trip he would not normally make simply because its something you would not have time for on a daily basis even with an hour.

so ya, i can believe him. believe that he does not want to make EVs work for him and that is ok. right now, the supply is tight and he can go ahead and get out of the line.

I'm voting idiot:

Here's the real scoop: By the time I got to the interstate highway that leads to my downtown office — the entrance ramp is about 2.5 miles from my house — the miles-to-empty readout had dropped from 100 to 81, indicating that I already had used 19 miles of the battery's power.

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He hadn't used 19 miles of battery power - it had just adjusted the range estimate to his driving style. How can an automotive journalist not understand that?

It's like saying, in an ICE car with a mpg meter, that if you drive it hard and fast and the mpg drops from 50 to 30 that the engine had been damaged.

The point which is being missed is that he consistently got half the range being projected by the Leaf. The 100 miles was more like 50 miles. 66 miles was more like 33 miles. That was consistent in every scenario he lays out.

I was surprised at this until I read about the snow, at which point I realized he had the car during SuperBowl week when it was unseasonably cold in Texas, though those temperatures would be expected in many part of the country. The main takeaway is that the Leaf's range in cold weather will be more like 50 miles rather than 100 miles. Another takeaways is that the EPA range of 73 miles is going to be accurate, assuming of course that Nissan ultimately sells the cars in cold weather states.

You can call the guy an idiot all you like but the only real mistake he made was in believing the car's range estimates.

SanDust said:

The point which is being missed is that he consistently got half the range being projected by the Leaf. The 100 miles was more like 50 miles. 66 miles was more like 33 miles. That was consistent in every scenario he lays out.

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No. He isn't even charging to full. Anyway, it is a confusing hit piece, he doesn't give all the details. Ofcourse, being a Volt fan you would like it

its not to swift to hand a car off to a journalist and expect them to commute 54mi rt each day off 110v charging speed. add winter and its just stupid

Agood test of the car for a week should involve some planning by Nissan and the journalist to have 240v evse at home , or at work.

thats a real world test

not a : new car, 110v cable and once every 10 year snow storm in texas!

SanDust said:

You can call the guy an idiot all you like but the only real mistake he made was in believing the car's range estimates.

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That, and he probably drove the car EXACTLY like he drives his ICE. That's the one point Nissan needs to work on in their advertising for the car; you don't have to change EVERYHTHING about how your drive, but you do need to change a few things... otherwise, a perfectly acceptable EV won't be acceptable.

Jimmydreams said:

That, and he probably drove the car EXACTLY like he drives his ICE.

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But isn't that the point of the Leaf as the first mass market EV? The general population does not want to have to worry about range - but it's clear that even among educated early adopters 100 mi range provides anxiety.

Makes me respect Toyota's position of not wanting to produce an EV until they can provide 100 mi range in nearly all conditions (that's what they are aiming for with the RAV4-EV prototype they are working with Tesla on - supposedly the battery will be about 40-50% larger than the Leaf battery which should be good for 100 mi EPA range rather than the 73 mi EPA range of the Leaf).

It does seem like another 20-30 mi of range in the Leaf would provide a lot of range anxiety relief among Leaf early adopters... I mean - can you honestly say that you wouldn't mind being able to comfortably go back to driving ~75 mph on your commute without worry instead of 65 mph?

drees said:

Jimmydreams said:

That, and he probably drove the car EXACTLY like he drives his ICE.

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But isn't that the point of the Leaf as the first mass market EV? The general population does not want to have to worry about range - but it's clear that even among educated early adopters 100 mi range provides anxiety.

Makes me respect Toyota's position of not wanting to produce an EV until they can provide 100 mi range in nearly all conditions (that's what they are aiming for with the RAV4-EV prototype they are working with Tesla on - supposedly the battery will be about 40-50% larger than the Leaf battery which should be good for 100 mi EPA range rather than the 73 mi EPA range of the Leaf).

It does seem like another 20-30 mi of range in the Leaf would provide a lot of range anxiety relief among Leaf early adopters... I mean - can you honestly say that you wouldn't mind being able to comfortably go back to driving ~75 mph on your commute without worry instead of 65 mph?

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It's clear the author almost went out of his way to run low on juice....admittedly making a lunch run when he knew he was running low. If you write a check when you know the funds aren't there to cover it, why should anyone be surprised when it bounces?

I think we're also getting a little lost on the term "range anxiety" (RA). To me, RA means worrying about having the juice to get where I need to go in a reasonable fashion. For that definition, I don't have RA anymore. If your version of RA means being able to drive 75mph to and from work and still make it home...well, now we're back to talking checks and money again, aren't we? The Leaf can make the journey just fine, but not when driven to extremes, or when driven with NO thought to conditions or behavior. Are you saying that if you're 50 miles from the nearest gas station and your car is on E that you should expect to drive it at 90mph for that last 50 miles with the A/C blasting?

I think therein lies the rub. Most people want to continue the lead-foot mentality regardless of the situation. I think that's stupid. High gas prices can FORCE people to change, or a car like the Leaf can OFFER them the chance to change. No one is forcing a Leaf on anyone, but the buyers need to be educated on what they're getting. If Toyota is waiting to market something that is as close to an ICE engine as possible, they may find the market (and possibly society) has passed them by. I think that when the general public sees people getting the equivalent of 100mpg on their Leaf, or paying the equivalent of $1.25/gal gas, the public WILL notice. And when people realize the small sacrifices they may need to make to get those benefits, I think the vast majority will be happy to change. As gas, food, and the price of everything else goes up, I think you'll be surprised at the lengths people will willingly go to to save money.

A 35 mile one-way commute at 65mph takes 32 minutes. The same drive at 75mph takes 28 minutes. Is 4 minutes really such an imposition on someone to offer them 100mpg? I think not.

Jimmydreams said:

A 35 mile one-way commute at 65mph takes 32 minutes. The same drive at 75mph takes 28 minutes. Is 4 minutes really such an imposition on someone to offer them 100mpg? I think not.

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+1 :!:

Well said!!!

drees said:

But isn't that the point of the Leaf as the first mass market EV?

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I take that as meaning reasonably priced ($25K), highway capable and having atleast 50 miles range.

BTW, SoCal situation isn't typical at all. The distances are large & the speeds are high. Infact one of the areas I think that will face serious repurcussions because of peak oil.

drees said:

Makes me respect Toyota's position of not wanting to produce an EV until they can provide 100 mi range in nearly all conditions (that's what they are aiming for with the RAV4-EV prototype they are working with Tesla on - supposedly the battery will be about 40-50% larger than the Leaf battery which should be good for 100 mi EPA range rather than the 73 mi EPA range of the Leaf).

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Toyota is just playing the CARB game. They have already said they will offer RAV4-EV in limited quantities (probably read high price).

Range is a function of price. If you want to be able to produce in large enough numbers and sell them at a $25K price without tax cedits in 3 years, you have to start with a smaller battery. Toyota is just waiting for someone else to get the economies of scale to benefit from. Hardly a respectable position.

Jimmydreams said:

A 35 mile one-way commute at 65mph takes 32 minutes. The same drive at 75mph takes 28 minutes. Is 4 minutes really such an imposition on someone to offer them 100mpg? I think not.

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I agree completely Jimmy - but getting people to change their habits (voluntarily or not) is not easy. Making people change will cause them to complain. And thus we end up with articles like this one. A lot of range anxiety will go away once DC quick charge stations start popping up. Worried about running low? Topping up for 5 minutes should give you 15 mi breathing room - problem solved!

BTW - have a look at how many people (many here with LEAFs) feel that driving 65 mph on the highway is not safe! Driving on many of the same freeways I completely disagree - I think it's all in their head... Someone could probably write a thesis about pack/herd mentality and how it relates to driving (probably already done!).

Here's another data/talking point with respect to cold weather. Someone over on Facebook asked about the impact of the heater on the battery. I replied that using the heater (when the outside temperature is in the mid-30s) consumes about 10% of the battery capacity per hour. If I take that further, assuming a 100-mile range, it's the same as saying I'm losing 10 miles of range for every hour I run the heater. An ICE vehicle at idle uses 0.25 to 0.5 gallons of gasoline per hour, which is also roughly equivalent to 10 miles of range.

On the Centralia trip the other day acc usage was 2.5 kwh. That is probably 10 miles of range