Swifty
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 9:13 am
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2011

Re: Range Chart

Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:22 pm

Thanks for all the information and pointers. I'm content with the information I get from my 2011 Leaf. I couldn't base journeys on an accurate measure of charge or range when the charging point I'm aiming for might be offline when I get there. So, I'll always try to charge at the first charging point I come to whilst I still have two charging points in range. The infrastructure is improving rapidly, so maybe I'll feel capable of of going further between recharges in future.

Presumably, the extra range that I get from charging is proportional to the time I spend charging (back up to 80%), so if I charge twice as often then each charge will take roughly half the time. The first charging point I come to on most of my journeys is about 30-35 miles from home. Charging back to 80% there takes about 20 minutes. Like an F1 pit-stop, I lose a small amount of time on the in-run and the out-run, but that's no more than 5 minutes added on to my charging time. So far, I've never encountered a busy charging point, and all of the points I've used recently have been doubled-up, so contention should be even rarer until EV's become more common.

I rarely see another Leaf whilst driving short local journeys, but a couple of weeks ago I went to the local town and saw three other Leafs. The four of us came close to being in a convoy along the High Street. And whilst out delivering prescriptions, I talked to one Leaf owner, and another with the e-NV200 van.
Steve Swift (aka "Swifty") — http://www.swiftys.org.uk/

JCPanosh
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:37 am

Re: Range Chart

Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:54 am

Great chart. Can I work the range like an ICE vehicle? eg: in my ICE I have instantaneous fuel use, l /1OOkm if I get 5l/100km I know I can go 150 km(1/4 tank). So can I see instantaneous wh/km? Then if l drive and get the low wh/km I should be able to judge my range pretty accurately.I always use the trip meter to judge the range as well. If I Can go 150 km on a charge, and I have 1/2 energy left and gone 75km, then I know I am on target. If l have done 30km on 1/2 energy left then know lam going to most likely not get 150km.
The charge bars and capacity bars make perfect sense. 12 bars of both, best case. Left hand bars go down that is the amount of range. Right hand bars go down, that is a drop in total overall range/maximum range.

GTLeafMem
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:59 am
Delivery Date: 21 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 408923
Location: Memphis, TN

Re: Range Chart

Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:40 am

JCPanosh wrote:Great chart. Can I work the range like an ICE vehicle? eg: in my ICE I have instantaneous fuel use, l /1OOkm if I get 5l/100km I know I can go 150 km(1/4 tank). So can I see instantaneous wh/km? Then if l drive and get the low wh/km I should be able to judge my range pretty accurately.I always use the trip meter to judge the range as well. If I Can go 150 km on a charge, and I have 1/2 energy left and gone 75km, then I know I am on target. If l have done 30km on 1/2 energy left then know lam going to most likely not get 150km.
The charge bars and capacity bars make perfect sense. 12 bars of both, best case. Left hand bars go down that is the amount of range. Right hand bars go down, that is a drop in total overall range/maximum range.

There is an instantaneous meter in the display behind the steering wheel and also in the navigation (if equipped).

Calculating instantaneous fuel use is easy in the Leaf (pardon my use of miles, just sub in km instead):

[Instantaneous miles/kWh] = [speed miles/hour] / [power kW] <==you may need the nav system to see the instantaneous power consumption.

For example if you are going 40 miles per hour and the total power that the Leaf is consuming is 10 kW, then the instantaneous would be:

(40 mph) / (10 kW) = 4 miles / kWh (6.4 km/kWh)

If you want kWh / mile, just invert the above. You will find that the Leaf's instantaneous readout lies at very low speeds (to make us feel better?).

I have found that slow speeds and very gradual acceleration and deceleration GREATLY increase efficiency and thus maximum range. On the highway I get about 3.2 miles/kWh (5.1 km/kWh) but I get more than 5 miles/kWh (8.0 km/kWh) on surface streets. Getting 50% more range per charge helps reduce my range anxiety...

Now getting an accurate estimate of your remaining energy will require that you connect some 3rd party equipment to read it from the on board computer. I just assume that my battery is roughly 20 kWh and use the %-battery remaining meter to get a rough estimate.
Priuses are gas-guzzlers.

kennethbokor
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:35 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Nov 2016

Re: Range Chart

Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:36 pm

Hi is there an updated chart factoring in the 30kWh battery? Or just up the numbers by +25%?

bitflung
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 11:27 am
Delivery Date: 26 May 2015
Leaf Number: 023791
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Range Chart

Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:31 pm

Is anyone else getting actual mileage disturbingly worse than expected?

Short story in bullet points (I tried being more verbose but I ended up with unnecessary venting about defective DCQC's along my route; figured I'd trim that fat before posting so here's the ultra short version):

- I bought a used 2012 LEAF SL last May; 12 bars, SOH:~85%, Hx:~70%
- first long trip, March 6th, clear weather, light side wind, ~40F, intended journey was 107 miles each way
- highway speed as ~60mph; backroads ~30mph; total journey was split 70/30 in favor of highway driving
- effective range from 100% observed at ~42 miles (reached LBW at ~37 miles)
- effective range from ~80% observed at ~30 miles (reached LBW at ~25 miles; stretched to 35 miles on one leg of trip but hit turtle mode)
- area is near sea level (Boston MA) and weather was cold but otherwise clear (no rain, no wipers, lights only used on return trip and had no measurable impact on range)
- cabin heater was off 100% of drive; steering and seat warmers were on ~50% of drive;
- light-weight occupancy: one adult and one toddler (2.5 years old; suffered through the crappy experience like a champ)
- tires at 40psi (cold)
- [EDIT TO ADD] I reset the trip and mi/kwh meters each time I charged, but carwings reports that I got 3.6 mi/kwh that day, for 234 miles of driving (had to go out of my way to find a couple chargers). carwings also reports 7.2 hours of driving time, so we can calc average speed at 32.5mph. that might suggest i spent more time on backroads than previously suggested (above)
-> overall the above seems indicative of a degraded battery with ~60% capacity remaining (taking into account temp)

I fear my battery was somehow reset by the dealership before I bought it and that it is actually significantly degraded. Would other more 'mature' EV drivers be alarmed by range performance as described above?

the above was not expected. I had planned to drive ~55 miles between DCQCs and so have 1 charge on the first leg and 2 chargers on the return trip. I planned for 1 hour at each charger. The 214 round trip drive would normally take ~4 hours but took my nearly 12 hours in my LEAF due to frequent charging and occasional need to use level 2 chargers (where I can only pull 3.3kw). In the end I required three charging sessions (minimum) on each leg of the trip (107 miles per leg), not accounting for the extra miles spent trying to find DCQCs which weren't out of order or parked in by dealership ICE inventory (how frustrating: for what it's worth I suggest others avoid Coastal Nissan in Norwood MA).

-bit

kikngas
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:19 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Sep 2014
Leaf Number: 310377
Location: SE Minnesota

Re: Range Chart

Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:51 pm

Perhaps you could explain what your expectations were that were disturbingly unmet. Are you clear on the tiny capacity bars as compared to the long bars that indicate the % charge in the battery? In other words, when you 100% charge a degraded battery you will see all 12 long bars, regardless of how degraded it is. But the short ends of the bars indicate the current aged capacity of the battery and gradually reduce over time.

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1471
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:12 am
Leaf Number: 16156
Location: Tennessee

Re: Range Chart

Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:38 pm

bitflung wrote:- I bought a used 2012 LEAF SL last May; 12 bars, SOH:~85%, Hx:~70%


at 85% SOH the range chart you want is for a 11 bar leaf, use

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sfufez3dcdvrv ... 2.pdf?dl=0

You might not have lost that 12th bar yet but you are right on the edge of doing so and will do it this summer.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

bitflung
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 11:27 am
Delivery Date: 26 May 2015
Leaf Number: 023791
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Range Chart

Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:50 am

kikngas wrote:Perhaps you could explain what your expectations were that were disturbingly unmet.

My expectations were to have a range of 60+ miles on a full (100%) charge, and 50+ miles on an 80% charge in the conditions described.
Instead I realized ~40 miles of range on a full charge and ~30 miles on an 80% charge.
My expectations were 1.5x greater than observed performance despite being based on observed performance for other drivers.

a 1.5x differential is disturbing to me.

kikngas wrote:Are you clear on the tiny capacity bars as compared to the long bars that indicate the % charge in the battery? In other words, when you 100% charge a degraded battery you will see all 12 long bars, regardless of how degraded it is. But the short ends of the bars indicate the current aged capacity of the battery and gradually reduce over time.

yes this is perfectly clear to me. i have not yet lost any "short end bars" as you put it. with a SOH at 85% this should be clear, though I do realize (as @dhanson865 mentions) that i'll soon lose my first bar.

my fear is that the reported metrics are skewed; i've heard horror stories of other used LEAF buyers receiving vehicles with purposefully altered battery metrics (which degraded quickly after purchase to reflect actual battery state). I bought mine used last may (May 2015) and haven't lost a bar yet, but there have been oddities:
- range has been lower than expected
- car reported zero QCs on leaf spy but it seems unlikely someone would have NEVER tried it even once
- first few QC events that I performed were NOT RECORDED in the car (leaf spy showed zero QC's even after my third QC). car started recording QC's only after QC'ing while leaf spy was active (active during the charge session itself as a debug effort to be sent to the dev)

Overall I'm now worried that my LEAF is somehow tampered with and has a dud battery. I posted this in an effort to see if other, more "mature" LEAF drivers, would be concerned with the same observations. If you bought a LEAF for your spouse/child/whomever and personally observed what I've described, would you consider it "normal" ro would you be concerned that these numbers might not add up properly?

bitflung
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 11:27 am
Delivery Date: 26 May 2015
Leaf Number: 023791
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Range Chart

Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:05 am

dhanson865 wrote:
bitflung wrote:- I bought a used 2012 LEAF SL last May; 12 bars, SOH:~85%, Hx:~70%


at 85% SOH the range chart you want is for a 11 bar leaf, use

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sfufez3dcdvrv ... 2.pdf?dl=0

You might not have lost that 12th bar yet but you are right on the edge of doing so and will do it this summer.


Thanks for that. Yeah, I realize that I'll lose a bar soon. Losing that bar won't change the actual performance of the car much though (since the bars reflect actual capacity and don't themselves limit functionality). In the current state my car seems to be performing as though it has a more significantly degraded battery than is being reported.

This morning, fresh off the level 1 charger in my garage with a 100% SOC, Leaf Spy reported that I've got 223 GIDs. This seems to represent ~80% SOH (assuming a starting point of 280 GIDs). The low Hx (now at 70.53%) also concerns me as most everyone I've seen report a value here has indicated a much higher value (and I understand this is likely related to internal resistance, so a fraction of every kwh I pull from the pack is being lost before it reaches the motor. I doubt Hx is so simple as to represent that only 70% of the power reaches my motor, but it does suggest one possible manner by which my battery might be under performing).

In the end I'm trying to figure out:
a. would any of the observed cause others to be concerned if this were THEIR vehicle?
b. if so, would taking the car in for an exhaustive battery test perhaps be meaningful?
c. if the battery is under performing (as per popular opinion) but not meeting criteria for warranty replacement I might consider purchasing a replacement
d. if the battery is under performing and was likely tampered with by the dealership I purchased from and is also not meeting criteria for warrant replacement; i'll likely pony up a $1k deposit for a tesla model 3 and prepare to dump this car in ~2 years when the model 3 is likely to be delivered

I'm somewhat a noob when it comes to the LEAF itself, but i'm a rather technical person. i'm a computer engineer, i've driven BHEVs since 2001 (bought a 2001 Honda Insight back then; best car buying decision i ever made), and i'm interested enough in the subject matter to pay attention. overall i'm not ready to jump to any conclusions (i don't KNOW that my battery is under performing with respect to other folks' experiences) but i've observed enough to feel a need to raise this question and dig deeper.

so would YOU expect more than ~40 miles of range on a 100% charge given the above conditions? or would you hit ~40 miles, shuffle off to a charger, and think, "yup, seems about right"?

jjeff
Posts: 1304
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Range Chart

Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:59 am

bitflung wrote:- car reported zero QCs on leaf spy but it seems unlikely someone would have NEVER tried it even once
- first few QC events that I performed were NOT RECORDED in the car (leaf spy showed zero QC's even after my third QC). car started recording QC's only after QC'ing while leaf spy was active (active during the charge session itself as a debug effort to be sent to the dev)

Overall I'm now worried that my LEAF is somehow tampered with and has a dud battery. I posted this in an effort to see if other, more "mature" LEAF drivers, would be concerned with the same observations. If you bought a LEAF for your spouse/child/whomever and personally observed what I've described, would you consider it "normal" ro would you be concerned that these numbers might not add up properly?

In regards to QCs, both my new purchased '13 and recently purchased '12 reported no QCs, I know my '13 has never had a QC but I was very surprised the '12 which according to Carfax came from the LA area of CA wouldn't have had some......when I purchased the '12 I put my '13 on the dealers QC station for a bit over 1/2hr, it went to 100% and after that it reported a QC so I believe LeafSpy is reporting QCs, at least for my '13. Next time I'm at the dealer that had the QC station(rare as hens teeth around here) I'll have to try it and see if LeafSpy recorded it.
I'm also having nowhere near the rang on my '12 as my '13 but it's somewhat understandable since the '12 is missing 2 bars going on 3. I'm rarely using heat but I am getting what you were looking for, ~60 miles @100%(actually it only charges to ~90% SOC before stopping) and ~50 miles stopping charging @80% using the timer. Does you Leaf charge to show 100% SOC? It sounds like mine is somewhat normal for a older battery, that is to not report a 100% SOC.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

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