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TonyWilliams
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Re: Range Chart

Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:42 am

msandeep wrote:
BrockWI wrote:It would be difficult to make a chart for average speed, there are so many variables. For example you could be on a country winding road slowly accelerating from 20 to 40 with no braking with an average of 30 compared to running surface streets with traffic lights running from heavy breaking and acceleration to 45 mph with an average of 30. When our car was new I tried to watch the average speed and somehow compare it to miles / kwh and it was all over the place depending on where and how my wife drove.


My speed is mostly constant. Out of about 80 minute roundtrip drive, the maximum speed is 65 mph for about 10 mins at most. Remaining is mostly 25 to 30 mph. Typical Bay Area freeway speeds during commute hours in carpool lane.


During drives like this, you would merely use the average miles/kWh that is generated. That's not predicting range, since you won't know wht the average was until the trip is over.

kikngas
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Location: SE Minnesota

Re: Range Chart

Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:23 am

LOVE the range chart. Now a permanent fixture in my LEAF.

Now that Winter is upon us, I wanted to clarify the adjustments suggested for temperature. The battery does not accept as many kWh at low temps. But I wanted to clarify/point out, two things:

1) We are talking the battery temp. not the air temp. And the only way to get a read on that is with a CAN device (other than the rather inadequate temp bars).

2) Given #1, let's just compare the charted/measured 70F with 30F. A 40F degree variation, so we're potentially adjusting range expectation by 10%. All temps stated in terms of the battery pack for this discussion.

Clearly if I charge at 70 and drive at 70, no adjustment is made.
If I charge at 30 and drive at 30, reduce expected range by 10%
But what if I charge at 70 and then drive at 30?? I realize it would typically take days for the battery to cool that far. But in MN, all it would take is backing out of a warm garage into the deep freeze and you could probably get their over night if it is below zero(F).

So, is the predicted range reduction due to the charge? Or to inefficiencies while driving?

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Range Chart

Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:32 am

kikngas wrote:LOVE the range chart. Now a permanent fixture in my LEAF.

Now that Winter is upon us, I wanted to clarify the adjustments suggested for temperature. The battery does not accept as many kWh at low temps. But I wanted to clarify/point out, two things:

1) We are talking the battery temp. not the air temp. And the only way to get a read on that is with a CAN device (other than the rather inadequate temp bars).



If the car sits out overnight, then the battery temperature is ambient. Otherwise, lacking a LEAF Spy device, you'd have to guess.



So, is the predicted range reduction due to the charge? Or to inefficiencies while driving?



Both. You will lose 10% battery capacity with 30F battery.

Plus, you will lose efficiency by pushing through snow or otherwise "contanimated" with standing water, snow, cold tires, more dense cold air, et al. How much you lose here is so variable that it would be nearly impossible to predict expect for you direct observations.

Good luck.

cwerdna
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Re: Range Chart

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:01 am


Is there an alternate location for these? I'm hitting this right now on those...
"Error (509)
This account's public links are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled! "

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

DanCar
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Location: SF Bay area, 94043

Re: Range Chart

Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:51 am

cwerdna wrote:
Is there an alternate location for these? I'm hitting this right now on those...
"Error (509)
This account's public links are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled! "
Perhaps try using Google Drive.

dhanson865
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Re: Range Chart

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:47 pm

cwerdna wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:If your LEAF is missing any of the capacity bar segments of the 12 total capacity segments (number 14 in the photo above), use the appropriate chart:

Here are the links on Dropbox - no downloading hassle:

Use this 100% chart for a factory new battery.

Use this 75% chart for a battery that has 10 of 12 capacity bar segments.

Use this 63% chart for a battery that has 8 of 12 capacity bar segments.

Is there an alternate location for these? I'm hitting this right now on those...
"Error (509)
This account's public links are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled! "


If it helps any I posted the 10 bar version at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachme ... 1428176594 so you can grab it there. The 12 bar and 8 bar versions are on the first page of this thread but I'll link them again here

http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss92 ... sion7F.jpg
http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss92 ... on7G63.jpg

I know you personally have been around long enough to figure it out on your own but for the newer drivers:

I doubt the 11 bar and 9 bar versions would be much help if you can't get by using one of the 8 bar or 10 bar versions.

If you drive aggressively or have cold or hot temps to deal with grab the version for 1 less bar than you have and you'll be auto corrected for that.

If you are a hyper miler pick your favorite with more or same number of bars and know that you might beat it.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Range Chart

Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:59 pm

The Dropbox links are fixed in the first post.

Swifty
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Re: Range Chart

Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:12 am

> Huh, far too complicated for the average driver? It's just a table. Are we assuming that the average driver can't read a simple table?

I have an honours degree in High Energy Nuclear Physics. I also have 64 years on my "ageometer". This probably makes me slightly below par.
I struggled to understand the table at first. I get distracted easily by things I don't comprehend. The problems I encountered were:

1. The left column is titled "Battery Gids". What's a "Gid"?
2. The numbers below the kWh/mile columns are presumably miles?
3. The tiny numbers to the right of the miles seem to be footnote references, but there are higher numbers than footnotes to match. The numbers appear only in the first chart and a few in the third. Why the inconsistency?

Don't get me wrong, this chart was exactly what I was looking for!

I got the numbers I needed (I was interested in how speed alone affects range, all else being constant). I've noticed that speeds below 30mph also exact a range penalty. In my Honda Hazz (Hybrid) and Gas-guzzler motorhome this is usually because I don't get into top gear until 40-50mph.

It would be interesting to know the speed at which you reach the minimum kWh/mile ... that seems to lie below 30mph, but probably not much lower from my observations.

Are there any tips on reducing kWh/mile when climbing hills? The cyclist rule is "never get off and walk". The NASA rule is "Go as fast as you can". The Leaf lies somewhere between these extremes.
Steve Swift (aka "Swifty") — http://www.swiftys.org.uk/

cwerdna
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Re: Range Chart

Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:22 am

Swifty wrote:1. The left column is titled "Battery Gids". What's a "Gid"?

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=17538
Swifty wrote:2. The numbers below the kWh/mile columns are presumably miles?

Yes.
Swifty wrote:3. The tiny numbers to the right of the miles seem to be footnote references, but there are higher numbers than footnotes to match. The numbers appear only in the first chart and a few in the third. Why the inconsistency?

I believe those numbers are the deltas between the mile values. Example: 132-125 = 7. 62 - 59 = 3.

Part of the motivation of this chart was when it was produced was that '11 and '12 Leaf had no % state of charge display AT ALL. All you had were the 12 not granular enough fuel bars (you couldn't tell if you were at the top, middle or bottom of a bar) and the crap GOM (guess-o-meter) "distance to empty". But you did have instrumentation like miles/kWh and hh:mm to charge. The discovery of the gid allowed people to use that as a proxy for % SoC. And, the max gid value of a car at full charge tended to go down, as the battery degraded.

http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2011 ... r-end.html yielded 132.0 miles @ 35 mph.

'13+ Leaf got a % SoC display.

IIRC, Tony Williams himself held up his chart at the December 2011 meeting at Google (Leaf's Chief Vehicle Engineer, Kadota-san was present). See viewtopic.php?p=155461#p155461 for the beginning of the discussion on that meeting. I was one of the many folks there.

And a lot discussion about the crappiness of the GOM, what was wrong with it, the need for a % SoC meter, etc. happened at that meeting. Nissan got the message.

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'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
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desiv
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Leaf Number: 018850
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Re: Range Chart

Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:53 am

cwerdna wrote:And a lot discussion about the crappiness of the GOM, what was wrong with it, the need for a % SoC meter, etc. happened at that meeting. Nissan got the message.

<Looks for a %SoC meter on his 2012..> Hmm..
<Looks for firmware upgrade to add that..> hmmm

Well, they kind of got the message.. ;-)
I'm OK with LeafSpy Pro now, and I've seen where Nissan says they "couldn't" add it on the 11s/12s, but I don't buy that. ;-)

desiv
2012 SL - Silver

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