powersurge
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Ability to stop charging on 2014 to avoid 100%

Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:02 am

achewt wrote:Yeah it is all pretty silly when you step back and view it from that perspective. Having said that, I've continued to charge to 100% every morning (timer set to finish right as I leave) and my capacity has only dropped 5% over 18 months and 62,000 km. Whatever they did for the 2014s (2013s?) obviously has helped over the 2011/2012s so it isn't as much of an issue with respect to degradation.

However, I still wish I had the feature for my originally posted reason (often charging in a mountain town then descending 2,000ft+). It would also be convenient for weekends when I don't want to charge the car full and leave it sitting there for days.



Wow! It's great to see you have gotten such good use of your car to get 62K Km in less than 2 years! I have also heard that some have been using the Leaf as a cab, and have over 100K miles with no degradation of battery! Keep up the good work!

bjarthur
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:36 am
Delivery Date: 09 Dec 2015

Re: Ability to stop charging on 2014 to avoid 100%

Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:28 am

Mr. Congressman / Senator / President,

I write concerning electric vehicles and the influence that federal regulations are having on their features. Specifically, manufacturers have responded to changes in how official government driving range estimates are calculated by removing measures that owners can take to increase the longevity of their car. The result is not only increased cost to the consumer, but also increased hazardous waste produced in disposing of dead batteries. I'm not sure whether to contact the EPA, DOT, or DOE, and am hoping that you could help me change the regulations.

The full story is as follows: lithium ion batteries have a limited number of times they can be charged. I'm sure you are familiar with this from consumer electronics you own. Since electric vehicle batteries cost ten times more than cell phones, and have 1000-fold as much heavy metals, it is imperative that they be treated properly to maximize their lifetime.

For years manufacturers recommended not charging the car's battery to more than 80% of it's capacity unless you needed to immediately drive the full range of the car. The reason being that leaving the battery fully charged for a period of time reduces its capacity to carry a charge in the future. Most cars had a simple interface on the dashboard to switch between "long life mode", as the 80% charge limit is sometimes called, and "long range mode", which charged to 100%.

Circa 2013 the official government estimated range changed from that possible with a 100% charge, to the average of the 80% and 100% charge ranges. Crucially, this change was only made for those cars whose manufacturers recommended charging to only 80% unless the extra capacity was needed. Because the advertised driving range of an electric vehicle is the dominant feature driving consumer purchases these days, many, if not all, manufacturers not only stopped recommending the 80% charge limit, but even made it inconvenient for consumers to stop charging early. Doing so permitted manufacturers to circumvent the new rule, and remain competitive in the market by retaining the previous estimated driving range based solely on a 100% charge. It is noteworthy that "long life mode" still exists for cars sold outside of the Unites States, so clearly manufacturers are taking advantage of a loophole in our regulations.

If you have read this far, I thank you for your time. Please let me know what I can do to change the regulations regarding the estimated driving range of electric vehicles. It is important that manufacturers not be penalized for giving consumers the ability to conveniently limit charging to 80%, as it effects the overall lifespan of the car, and hence the total cost to the consumer and the total hazardous waste produced in battery disposal.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12332
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Ability to stop charging on 2014 to avoid 100%

Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:02 am

I would investigate charging options at the bottom. I know it sucks to lose a charging opp when you are going to be parked but if "planning" a charge that only requires manipulating the charge timer is too much for you, I am hesitant to suggest anything that is within your comfort zone. I agree its a pushbutton World but this is taking it a bit too far.

But what I really have an issue with is you thinking its ok to park and take up a charging space for who knows how many hours when you only need a boost. Your best bet is to charge immediately upon arrival and return to your car at the appropriate time to move it so someone else can charge.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

achewt
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:45 am
Delivery Date: 09 May 2014
Location: Nelson, BC

Re: Ability to stop charging on 2014 to avoid 100%

Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:29 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:I would investigate charging options at the bottom. I know it sucks to lose a charging opp when you are going to be parked but if "planning" a charge that only requires manipulating the charge timer is too much for you, I am hesitant to suggest anything that is within your comfort zone. I agree its a pushbutton World but this is taking it a bit too far.

But what I really have an issue with is you thinking its ok to park and take up a charging space for who knows how many hours when you only need a boost. Your best bet is to charge immediately upon arrival and return to your car at the appropriate time to move it so someone else can charge.


I hope your snarky reply wasn't aimed at me (actually, at anyone else either). You didn't know all of the specifics of my charging situation, so I'll spell it out more clearly and you can decide whether you want to retract your statement:
- about 20% remaining on arrival, often less (having climbed/descended 500 m, then climbed 600 m right before parking to charge)
- there was no other L2 charger at the bottom, nor anywhere else in the entire region at that time (aside from my house, 80 km away)
- I'm an engineer, so the "planning" of the timer is not too difficult for me, I see it as a pointless exercise to circumvent a stupid rule put in by the EPA. Hence this thread in the "Suggestion" forum for items that Nissan could improve on
- the town in question is very small, and I was the only EV owner at the time (and one of only 2 in the region, the other one being a Smart ED, that wouldn't even be able to make it to this charger), and there were two EVSE's... so no I wasn't blocking the charger as you wrongly assumed.
Ocean Blue 2014 SL, 133,000km as of mid-Oct 2017, back up to 85% (from low of 83%!) SOH
1 bar lost Aug 31/17 @ 54.5Ahr 83%SOH 79.72%Hx 127,413km
Commuting 142km round-trip; level 2 at home, level 1 at work
http://kootenayEVfamily.ca

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7394
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Ability to stop charging on 2014 to avoid 100%

Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:49 pm

The full story is as follows: lithium ion batteries have a limited number of times they can be charged. I'm sure you are familiar with this from consumer electronics you own. Since electric vehicle batteries cost ten times more than cell phones, and have 1000-fold as much heavy metals, it is imperative that they be treated properly to maximize their lifetime.

For years manufacturers recommended not charging the car's battery to more than 80% of it's capacity unless you needed to immediately drive the full range of the car. The reason being that leaving the battery fully charged for a period of time reduces its capacity to carry a charge in the future. Most cars had a simple interface on the dashboard to switch between "long life mode", as the 80% charge limit is sometimes called, and "long range mode", which charged to 100%.

Circa 2013 the official government estimated range changed from that possible with a 100% charge, to the average of the 80% and 100% charge ranges. Crucially, this change was only made for those cars whose manufacturers recommended charging to only 80% unless the extra capacity was needed. Because the advertised driving range of an electric vehicle is the dominant feature driving consumer purchases these days, many, if not all, manufacturers not only stopped recommending the 80% charge limit, but even made it inconvenient for consumers to stop charging early.


This letter is misleading, because we are actually talking about one manufacturer, and exactly one electric car model. Does anyone else know of a car other than the Leaf that had the 80% charge feature and then dropped it? Other manufacturers made a real effort to make sure that their batteries weren't going to degrade in heat. Also, all of those other lithium-powered devices mentioned are designed by the manufacturers to use more than the optimum range of capacity in their batteries, thus shortening the lives of those batteries, in the interest of more consumer appeal via longer runtimes.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12332
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Ability to stop charging on 2014 to avoid 100%

Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:52 am

achewt wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:I would investigate charging options at the bottom. I know it sucks to lose a charging opp when you are going to be parked but if "planning" a charge that only requires manipulating the charge timer is too much for you, I am hesitant to suggest anything that is within your comfort zone. I agree its a pushbutton World but this is taking it a bit too far.

But what I really have an issue with is you thinking its ok to park and take up a charging space for who knows how many hours when you only need a boost. Your best bet is to charge immediately upon arrival and return to your car at the appropriate time to move it so someone else can charge.


I hope your snarky reply wasn't aimed at me (actually, at anyone else either). You didn't know all of the specifics of my charging situation, so I'll spell it out more clearly and you can decide whether you want to retract your statement:
- about 20% remaining on arrival, often less (having climbed/descended 500 m, then climbed 600 m right before parking to charge)
- there was no other L2 charger at the bottom, nor anywhere else in the entire region at that time (aside from my house, 80 km away)
- I'm an engineer, so the "planning" of the timer is not too difficult for me, I see it as a pointless exercise to circumvent a stupid rule put in by the EPA. Hence this thread in the "Suggestion" forum for items that Nissan could improve on
- the town in question is very small, and I was the only EV owner at the time (and one of only 2 in the region, the other one being a Smart ED, that wouldn't even be able to make it to this charger), and there were two EVSE's... so no I wasn't blocking the charger as you wrongly assumed.


1. if are at a charger and not charging (even if you are the only one at a charging mecca of 100 unused plugs) you are blocking.

2. maybe my "snarky" comments are based on having read a post like yours hundreds of times in the past. I thought we should be past crying about things that happened years ago (ya, its been that long)

3. you are an engineer so stop crying and fix the damn thing!
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

achewt
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:45 am
Delivery Date: 09 May 2014
Location: Nelson, BC

Re: Ability to stop charging on 2014 to avoid 100%

Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:13 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
achewt wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:I would investigate charging options at the bottom. I know it sucks to lose a charging opp when you are going to be parked but if "planning" a charge that only requires manipulating the charge timer is too much for you, I am hesitant to suggest anything that is within your comfort zone. I agree its a pushbutton World but this is taking it a bit too far.

But what I really have an issue with is you thinking its ok to park and take up a charging space for who knows how many hours when you only need a boost. Your best bet is to charge immediately upon arrival and return to your car at the appropriate time to move it so someone else can charge.


I hope your snarky reply wasn't aimed at me (actually, at anyone else either). You didn't know all of the specifics of my charging situation, so I'll spell it out more clearly and you can decide whether you want to retract your statement:
- about 20% remaining on arrival, often less (having climbed/descended 500 m, then climbed 600 m right before parking to charge)
- there was no other L2 charger at the bottom, nor anywhere else in the entire region at that time (aside from my house, 80 km away)
- I'm an engineer, so the "planning" of the timer is not too difficult for me, I see it as a pointless exercise to circumvent a stupid rule put in by the EPA. Hence this thread in the "Suggestion" forum for items that Nissan could improve on
- the town in question is very small, and I was the only EV owner at the time (and one of only 2 in the region, the other one being a Smart ED, that wouldn't even be able to make it to this charger), and there were two EVSE's... so no I wasn't blocking the charger as you wrongly assumed.


1. if are at a charger and not charging (even if you are the only one at a charging mecca of 100 unused plugs) you are blocking.

2. maybe my "snarky" comments are based on having read a post like yours hundreds of times in the past. I thought we should be past crying about things that happened years ago (ya, its been that long)

3. you are an engineer so stop crying and fix the damn thing!


1. The world is shades of grey, and I was nearby and in cell service if someone was in dire need of a charge (despite all the caveats I already posted.)

2. I have no idea what you are referring to here, since the inability to stop the car from charging past 80% only became an issue in 2014.

3. I am an environmental engineer, not a software engineer. I don't have the skill-set nor time or desire to teach myself how to reverse engineer Nissan's programming. I don't even know why I'm defending myself to you, since I'm not crying... maybe you haven't noticed but this thread is in the SUGGESTIONS forum. Not the "whinging about why my car doesn't do what I want it to do" forum.

If you aren't actually interested in contributing to the SUGGESTION that I am making to Nissan to enhance their product, take your trolling elsewhere.
Ocean Blue 2014 SL, 133,000km as of mid-Oct 2017, back up to 85% (from low of 83%!) SOH
1 bar lost Aug 31/17 @ 54.5Ahr 83%SOH 79.72%Hx 127,413km
Commuting 142km round-trip; level 2 at home, level 1 at work
http://kootenayEVfamily.ca

achewt
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:45 am
Delivery Date: 09 May 2014
Location: Nelson, BC

Re: Ability to stop charging on 2014 to avoid 100%

Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:22 am

bjarthur wrote:Mr. Congressman / Senator / President,

(snip)

If you have read this far, I thank you for your time. Please let me know what I can do to change the regulations regarding the estimated driving range of electric vehicles. It is important that manufacturers not be penalized for giving consumers the ability to conveniently limit charging to 80%, as it effects the overall lifespan of the car, and hence the total cost to the consumer and the total hazardous waste produced in battery disposal.


Thanks for sending this letter. I definitely agree with the underlined sentiment.
Ocean Blue 2014 SL, 133,000km as of mid-Oct 2017, back up to 85% (from low of 83%!) SOH
1 bar lost Aug 31/17 @ 54.5Ahr 83%SOH 79.72%Hx 127,413km
Commuting 142km round-trip; level 2 at home, level 1 at work
http://kootenayEVfamily.ca

Levenkay
Gold Member
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:01 pm
Delivery Date: 16 May 2013
Leaf Number: 19196
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Ability to stop charging on 2014 to avoid 100%

Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:04 pm

achewt wrote:
bjarthur wrote:Mr. Congressman / Senator / President,

(snip)

If you have read this far, I thank you for your time. Please let me know what I can do to change the regulations regarding the estimated driving range of electric vehicles. It is important that manufacturers not be penalized for giving consumers the ability to conveniently limit charging to 80%, as it effects the overall lifespan of the car, and hence the total cost to the consumer and the total hazardous waste produced in battery disposal.


Thanks for sending this letter. I definitely agree with the underlined sentiment.
To really make the letter stand out, spell "affects" properly.

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