DaveinOlyWA
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Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
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Re: What I want in a Leaf 3.0

Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:18 am

goldbrick wrote:I'm not in the market for a new car since my 2017 Leaf should do everything I need it to indefinately. BUT, one thing I wish Nissan would offer is to make the heat-pump heating system an option for any trim level. I have an 2017 S and on the few days I need to use the cabin heat, I just cringe to think of how silly it is to use that much energy to just heat the cabin when a heat pump could do the same job with much less consumption.


Waste of money! I opt for a heated 5 point harness. Seat heaters work fine but they tend to be one sided. :)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
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EVDRIVER
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Re: What I want in a Leaf 3.0

Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:20 am

WetEV wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote: Anyone that wants a batter that does not degrade should consider a Tesla, there are many with 100K miles and little degradation.


Yes, just as there are many Leafs with 25K miles and little degradation. The Tesla battery is 4 times the size. The same number of battery cycles will take a $100,000 T esla M odle S more miles than a $25k Leaf. After tax credits, of course. Yes, the T esla S also is a faster, larger car, and has other things you might or might not want. Like high repair costs. Yes, the Leaf is a better deal in cool places where 90k miles before the first bar loss has been observed than in hot places with faster loss. The M odel 3 and Leaf 2.0 are unknown until we have a year or two to see how they are doing.

Maybe the right metric might be cost per mile, rather than just miles. Unless 0-60 time is your key goal.

I'd like a lower cost per mile. I don't care if this means a battery that needs to be replaced every 60k miles or 600k miles. I'm not interested in driving across the USA.


My comment is about degradation, a LEAF can have the same pack cooling as a Tesla, or other lower priced EV. The car does not have to have a price of $100k or a 0-60 time that is faster. A model 3 should do even better. Teslas in hot regions with high miles do not have issues like the LEAF. There are LEAFs with low miles with issues and vice versa as we know. Take the two cars in a warm climate and after 5 years look at a Tesla with 50K miles and LEAF with 20K miles, the LEAF will have degradation. It's not so much about cycles but heat and time as well. Put a 30Kwh pack in a Tesla and do the same miles as the 30kwh pack and you will see more degradation on the LEAF by a long shot in most cases. If Nissan was not trying to recoup their NRE and pack mistakes they would not have had a class action suit and they would likely be FAR ahead in sales. Unfortunately they are beating that horse and if they beat it into 2019 they are going to be in trouble unless they keep subsidizing cars with big incentives. It's been almost 11 years now and they move too slow on everything considering it's the same model car they are making on the same platform.

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IssacZachary
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Re: What I want in a Leaf 3.0

Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:25 am

I love my heated steering wheel and seats! Keep them in the Leaf! Maybe cooled seats as well would be nice.
2013 SL SOLD :cry:
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goldbrick
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Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Colorado front range

Re: What I want in a Leaf 3.0

Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:59 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
goldbrick wrote:I'm not in the market for a new car since my 2017 Leaf should do everything I need it to indefinately. BUT, one thing I wish Nissan would offer is to make the heat-pump heating system an option for any trim level. I have an 2017 S and on the few days I need to use the cabin heat, I just cringe to think of how silly it is to use that much energy to just heat the cabin when a heat pump could do the same job with much less consumption.


Waste of money! I opt for a heated 5 point harness. Seat heaters work fine but they tend to be one sided. :)


Agreed, mostly. I have no regrets getting an S since here in CO the winters tend to be sunny enough that defrost is not a problem. The heated seats work great for the times when it's cold but, there are still days I have used the heat and I just cringe thinking of how inefficient it is. I know it's a drop in the bucket relatively speaking and I love the AC. If I could have a heat pump added to my S for $1000 it would be a no-brainer for me. I don't know how much of the cost increase to the higher trim with the heat pump is for the heat pump itself so maybe I'm asking for too much. If the heat pump additional cost is $3k then yes, waste of money, but if it's $500, bring it on.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13274
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: What I want in a Leaf 3.0

Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:31 pm

goldbrick wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
goldbrick wrote:I'm not in the market for a new car since my 2017 Leaf should do everything I need it to indefinately. BUT, one thing I wish Nissan would offer is to make the heat-pump heating system an option for any trim level. I have an 2017 S and on the few days I need to use the cabin heat, I just cringe to think of how silly it is to use that much energy to just heat the cabin when a heat pump could do the same job with much less consumption.


Waste of money! I opt for a heated 5 point harness. Seat heaters work fine but they tend to be one sided. :)


Agreed, mostly. I have no regrets getting an S since here in CO the winters tend to be sunny enough that defrost is not a problem. The heated seats work great for the times when it's cold but, there are still days I have used the heat and I just cringe thinking of how inefficient it is. I know it's a drop in the bucket relatively speaking and I love the AC. If I could have a heat pump added to my S for $1000 it would be a no-brainer for me. I don't know how much of the cost increase to the higher trim with the heat pump is for the heat pump itself so maybe I'm asking for too much. If the heat pump additional cost is $3k then yes, waste of money, but if it's $500, bring it on.



Well, its an SV thing so a few thousand more. Its $450 for an S but no hybrid. Considering how few times I use heat, it would be a nearly complete waste of money. Besides the extra range makes wasting a few electrons painless. ;)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
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LeftieBiker
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Re: What I want in a Leaf 3.0

Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:03 pm

IIRC, the cold weather package for the SV is $1100. That means the heat pump costs well under $1k.
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WetEV
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Re: What I want in a Leaf 3.0

Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:05 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
WetEV wrote:I'd like a lower cost per mile. I don't care if this means a battery that needs to be replaced every 60k miles or 600k miles. I'm not interested in driving across the USA.


My comment is about degradation, a LEAF can have the same pack cooling as a Tesla, or other lower priced EV. The car does not have to have a price of $100k or a 0-60 time that is faster.


Sure, a $100k T esla's battery will outlast a $30k Leaf's battery.

But will the T esla's battery outlast the same $100k spend one a Leaf car and 30+ replacement battery packs? :lol:

Not to mention the extra electric power cost, extra repair cost and such for the T esla.
WetEV
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EVDRIVER
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Re: What I want in a Leaf 3.0

Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:13 pm

WetEV wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:
WetEV wrote:I'd like a lower cost per mile. I don't care if this means a battery that needs to be replaced every 60k miles or 600k miles. I'm not interested in driving across the USA.


My comment is about degradation, a LEAF can have the same pack cooling as a Tesla, or other lower priced EV. The car does not have to have a price of $100k or a 0-60 time that is faster.


Sure, a $100k T esla's battery will outlast a $30k Leaf's battery.

But will the T esla's battery outlast the same $100k spend one a Leaf car and 30+ replacement battery packs? :lol:

Not to mention the extra electric power cost, extra repair cost and such for the T esla.


The cost of the car has nothing to do with the pack longevity the size, cooling and chemistry does. You can cool the LEAF pack and it will last longer and it won't require buying a $100K car. The Model 3 uses the same pack tech and it is not $100K, etc, etc.

WetEV
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Re: What I want in a Leaf 3.0

Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:31 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:The cost of the car has nothing to do with the pack longevity the size, cooling and chemistry does. You can cool the LEAF pack and it will last longer and it won't require buying a $100K car. The Model 3 uses the same pack tech and it is not $100K, etc, etc.


I don't directly care about pack longevity, as long as changing a battery isn't that big of a deal. I do care about cost per mile. I shouldn't need to pay for a Leaf battery before 100k miles/8 years. At the rate that the technology is advancing, an 8 year old BEV isn't quite as exciting as it was at first.

Cost per mile. T esla is behind on this, and I'd hope that Leaf 3.0 continue to lead with this.
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IssacZachary
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Re: What I want in a Leaf 3.0

Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:10 am

According to the guy in this video a base Tesla Model 3 will cost around $28,244 without the Federal Tax Credit and $20,744 with it, not including tax, insurance or financing. By the same categories, a Leaf is about the same price in the end. Here's a breakdown, but note that my numbers are a bit different than Edmunds. Since the YouTube guy was going by Tesla's base price of $35,000 I adjusted the price for the Leaf from Edmunds figure of 33,990 to 29,990. I also changed the Leaf's electric costs since it was only $2,902 but since the Leaf gets 112 mpg-e and the Tesla gets 126 mpg-e I figured it should be calculated the same way for comparison. Of course there's no way of figuring everyone's individual electric rate plus potential public charging costs. For maintenance the Tesla number does include the cost of the home charging station, but I'm not sure if that's included in Edmunds figures on the Leaf. So the Leaf may cost more if you include an installation of a home charging station. Of course there are also repair costs, so don't ever break down!

5 Year total cost to own:
2018 Tesla M3 / 2018 Nissan Leaf S
Initial cost: $35,000 / $29,990
Electricity: $3,767 / $4,238
Maintenance: $4,525 / $3,244
Sum paid in 5 years: $42,292 / $37,472

Resale value: 43% $15,048 / 30% $8,997
Total cost: $28,244 / $28,475

Including federal tax credit of $7,500:
Total cost: $20,744 / $20,975

As you can see, the killer on the Leaf is the resell value. And this is where I say where the battery longevity comes into play. Yes, Nissan has kept a lower selling price by using a cheaper battery. If they put a Tesla battery in a Leaf the Leaf wouldn't cost $29,990 up front. But that and the lower range of the Leaf has and will keep making it have a terrible resell value.

Let me put it this way. Say they guarantee the battery for 10 years or 100,000 miles. After that's up whoever owns the Leaf will now be faced with a battery that degrades quickly. Now he either has to drive shorter distances or purchase a battery every so often. He's not going to pay a lot for a used Leaf knowing that it's in this condition or nearing this condition.

The alternative is to just keep the car. If you never have to replace the battery in the Leaf it becomes much more cheaper than the Tesla. As you can see, in 5 years the operating costs of the Leaf were about $5,000 cheaper. That's $1,000 per year! After that it will be up to the price of maintenance and repair parts to determine the operating cost, which I would guess the Nissan would be cheaper EXCEPT for the battery. See now, if you keep the car for 200,000 miles, then for the last 100,000 miles you either have to live with a degrading battery or pay thousands of dollars every so often for a new battery. If you pay $5,000 for the battery and it lasts 5 years then that's $1,000 per year more to own and operate the Leaf. Of course the cheapest would be to just keep driving it on it's degraded battery. But how degraded will it be after more than 100,000 miles?

It looks like the main problem here is the heat. I have over 50,000 miles on my Leaf and just lost the first bar not too long ago. And since the Leaf is in cooler weather now than with the previous owner my battery should last even longer, maybe even reaching 200,000 miles before losing the 8th bar. If Nissan simply incorporated some sort of battery cooling that might just do the trick for everyone. If that adds $1,000 to the sticker price but makes the battery last at least 100,000 miles or 10 years and brings the resell value up to 40% the Leaf would be even more economical in the long run. Yes, you might have to pay $6,000 for a battery some time in the future for another 10 years of service. But that's cheaper than $5,000 every 3 to 5 years.



Edmunds:

https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2018/st-401734188/cost-to-own/
2013 SL SOLD :cry:
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