GerryAZ
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Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:45 pm

mnl wrote:has anyone tried Ballistic Performance batteries?
https://www.ballistic-batteries.com/cat ... ?cPath=141

I had a 12-cell EVO2 a few years ago in my race car (mazda miata) which basically only got driven about once a month for race days and it worked great and saved a ton of weight.

I started thinking about eventually replacing the 12v in my Leaf with one of these and started reading a few of the threads and its a bit over my head so i was hoping to get some feedback

i have a 2011 Leaf with the solar panel on the spoiler. while i'd prefer covered parking, it's not available to me so it parks in the sun (at least i can use that panel on the spoiler). i'm in a part of Japan where the temps throughout a year might get as low as around single digit -C and up to mid-30C. i drive the car only about once a week on the weekend for groceries/errands (i commute by bike for work), typically not going more than 5-10mi each trip. i rarely use the car in ACC mode. my priorities are reliability and weight savings.

seems like the ballistic offerings and other motorcycle batteries would be appropriate for my use-case. is there anything i'm missing?

thanks!


The batteries in the link you posted do not have enough capacity to reliably power the residual load of your Leaf while it is parked. The 2011 and 2012 models only turn on the DC-DC converter for a short time every 5 days so the 12-volt battery must have enough capacity to supply the residual load for 5 days. A larger capacity lithium ion battery or a deep cycle AGM lead acid battery would be better for your use.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

mnl
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:00 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2017
Location: Japan

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:50 am

my understanding was that the panel on the spoiler is basically a constant trickle charger for the 12v battery when the car is off, which i hoped would keep it topped off and thus not require as much capacity. what would you consider a minimum capacity?

thanks!

GerryAZ wrote:The batteries in the link you posted do not have enough capacity to reliably power the residual load of your Leaf while it is parked. The 2011 and 2012 models only turn on the DC-DC converter for a short time every 5 days so the 12-volt battery must have enough capacity to supply the residual load for 5 days. A larger capacity lithium ion battery or a deep cycle AGM lead acid battery would be better for your use.

mnl wrote:has anyone tried Ballistic Performance batteries?
https://www.ballistic-batteries.com/cat ... ?cPath=141

I had a 12-cell EVO2 a few years ago in my race car (mazda miata) which basically only got driven about once a month for race days and it worked great and saved a ton of weight.

I started thinking about eventually replacing the 12v in my Leaf with one of these and started reading a few of the threads and its a bit over my head so i was hoping to get some feedback

i have a 2011 Leaf with the solar panel on the spoiler. while i'd prefer covered parking, it's not available to me so it parks in the sun (at least i can use that panel on the spoiler). i'm in a part of Japan where the temps throughout a year might get as low as around single digit -C and up to mid-30C. i drive the car only about once a week on the weekend for groceries/errands (i commute by bike for work), typically not going more than 5-10mi each trip. i rarely use the car in ACC mode. my priorities are reliability and weight savings.

seems like the ballistic offerings and other motorcycle batteries would be appropriate for my use-case. is there anything i'm missing?

thanks!
Last edited by mnl on Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:10 am

I'd say 20AH.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

mnl
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:00 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2017
Location: Japan

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:17 am

i've also heard good things (generally speaking, not specifically for the leaf) about shorai batteries as well. they come in much higher capacities, but are still very lightweight and relatively affordable
http://shoraipower.com/-c41

i think i've seen someone else here with a shorai, but can't remember where.

is 18 close enough to 20? :P i'm not sure how much each Ah means in real life

powersurge
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Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:48 am

All of this talk of replacing the Leaf 12 volt battery with these hi tech expensive batteries is total rubbish and a ridiculous waste of money. My Leaf battery is 3 years old, and NEVER been low on charge..

The Leaf battery is the least used and abused of any other car battery.... All it has to do is power the accessories (radio, lights, a/c), and the traction battery will replenish that energy. On a regular ICE car, the battery needs to be able to start the engine, and the power replenishment to the 12 volt battery is dependent on rpms of the engine.. Gas cars kill the battery when they use headlights, and air conditioning, and only drive stop and go at low speeds... The battery is only recharged at highway speeds.. The Leaf does not have to depend on engine RPM to recharge...

The people that buy $300 marine, AGM, or Lithium batteries obviously do not have enough to worry about in their lives, and have a lot of money to burn... People... Buy an $80 Costco battery, and forget about it.. Go to the food court, and have a nice day!!!

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Stanton
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:39 am

LeftieBiker wrote:I'd say 20AH.


That's what I've been using for 3+ years now...and never had a problem (and I'm the OP). The simple facts are 12v lead-acid batteries do not do well with extreme temps or deep cycling.
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
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Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

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Nubo
Posts: 4270
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Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:45 am

powersurge wrote:The Leaf battery is the least used and abused of any other car battery.... All it has to do is power the accessories (radio, lights, a/c), and the traction battery will replenish that energy. On a regular ICE car, the battery needs to be able to start the engine, and the power replenishment to the 12 volt battery is dependent on rpms of the engine.. Gas cars kill the battery when they use headlights, and air conditioning, and only drive stop and go at low speeds... The battery is only recharged at highway speeds.. The Leaf does not have to depend on engine RPM to recharge...


That all sounds logical, as long as you ignore the many reports of LEAF owners encountering dead batteries. When faced with a paradox, question your assumptions.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

mnl
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:00 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2017
Location: Japan

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:02 pm

can someone set me straight on my apparently incorrect understanding that the panel on the spoiler is basically a constant trickle charger for the 12v battery when the car is off, which i hoped would keep it topped off and thus not require as much capacity? what does that panel actually do if this is not true?

also, does anyone have any experience with Shorai or is anyone able to tell from their website if their products would be a good option?

the Shorai LFX19A4-BS12 (http://shoraipower.com/lfx19a4-bs12-p41720) seems to be pretty perfect and is very reasonably priced right now from amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I6 ... BK3C7LO58P). 19Ah, only 2.31lbs, and only about $157 shipped right now!

i would prefer not to replace my 12V before it is ready to be replaced, but my car is a 2011 and there doesnt seem to be any indication as to when it was last changed. i want to be prepared for if/when it's ready to go. furthermore, at your estimate of $80 for a normal battery from costco, the 19Ah shorai is less than double but typically speaking is likely to last more than twice as long. then there's the much lighter weight and smaller size making that weight lower down in the car. i don't care to argue what real life difference it makes, simply put i come from a racing background and the theory of weight reduction alone is enough that i wanna do it haha

GerryAZ
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:12 pm

The output of the solar panel might be enough in direct sun to offset the residual draw on the 12-volt battery. It is not sufficient to trickle charge enough to make up for the power draw when the sun is not shining. The 2011 and 2012 models charge the 12-volt battery from the traction battery every 5 days when parked so the 12-volt battery must have enough AHr capacity to supply the residual load for at least 5 days.

I recommend a deep cycle AGM battery with low internal resistance such as the Optima "yellow top" in size D51R (matches original size). The low internal resistance allows it to absorb more energy during the short charging period that happens every 5 days and during short-trip driving.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

mnl
Posts: 16
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Location: Japan

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:26 pm

ah, so my understanding of the system is ok, just overestimating how much it will actually help, which sounds to be next to nothing.

holy moly the optimas are heavy! at least the D51R is the lightest one... i would still like to find a good lithium based solution. not in a rush as long as the current battery in there holds up :P youve mentioned reasons the AGM are a good choice, but are there any reasons a lithium based battery would be a bad choice?

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