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Stanton
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Leaf Number: 7458
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:36 am

smkettner wrote:$520 or $650 here: http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/index.php


That's in the ballpark. The one (big) difference I can see between the two companies is: Lithium Pros actually design/build their own batteries (in TN--a couple hours drive from where the Leaf is built). I noticed there's a backlog/wait list for the Smart Battery product, so I don't know who designs/builds those batteries.
In addition, it looks like they have a "cover all bases" BMS where LP breaks theirs out into a "cell balance" and "cell balance+voltage protection=full" BMS. Nothing wrong with that, just a different approach to features/cost. Even though the Leaf is a much better "environment" than an ICE for a 12v battery, I definitely wouldn't buy a 12v Lithium replacement battery without some sort of integrated BMS (or it won't last).
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:43 am

Stanton wrote:I see a couple of basic questions:

1) Once you decide you DON'T want a lead acid 12v battery in your car (and I think we're seeing signs that they DON'T do well in a Leaf), your choices are limited to the AGM type batteries (that some have tried) or Lithium. If this battery lasts 3-5x LONGER than one of those, then paying 2-3x the price (which is already twice the price of a stock battery) will ultimately pay off in the long run (I didn't pay $800 for the battery). Same concept we took when we paid more for a BEV (up front) to avoid years of paying for gas.
2) You can read my blog entry on this (on MNL), but my research found that Lithium Pros know how to design batteries and the systems that control them to the point where their batteries have the most sophisticated BMS systems integrated into batteries today. As for the "cheap" 12v Lithium replacement batteries you find on eBay (and elsewhere), you get what you pay for.

Bottom line: I didn't buy this battery to save weight (although that's nice), I bought it because I expect it to last a LONG time in the Leaf.


first off, i agree with EVERYTHING you are saying. I am very familiar with several DIY EV projects and BMS is another expense that must be included so if its in the battery itself that goes a long way in explaining the price so what exactly did you pay for it?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
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Nubo
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:07 pm

Does its BMS have a low-voltage cutoff? 265 watt-hours is not huge but of course this can go to a far lower depth of discharge compared to the Lead-Acid. Still, given this car's dark current, especially when plugged in, it would be good to know that this expensive battery won't be bricked after a week or two of inattention.

Ah, nevermind it is in their FAQ -- battery does disconnect from load at low voltage. Cool.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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Stanton
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:34 am

Nubo wrote:Still, given this car's dark current, especially when plugged in, it would be good to know that this expensive battery won't be bricked after a week or two of inattention.


This is in important point--especially for a car like the Leaf. Based on the numbers I provided (from data others had gathered on the 12v charging system), LP believes that sizing the Lithium battery at half the size of the Lead Acid battery should be fine--again, especially for a car like the Leaf.
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

smkettner
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:55 am

With the high vampire load keeping the 12v battery at 50% to 70% average charge I would think the lithium would be better suited for the job. Lead/acid prefers to be at 100% for long service life where the lithium likes to be in the middle somewhere. Still it is a lot of money.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

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TomT
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:51 am

+1

I don't see the ROI here. Heck, I can shed 3 pounds just by leaving the owners manuals at home!

mikeEmike wrote:If it's worth $845 to shed 10 pounds, I'm going on a diet today. In fact, I think I'll go on a diet and lose 10 pounds anyway, even if it's worth $0. It will do a lot more good for my health than it would for my car.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2017 Volt Premier. Model 3 reserved.

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Stanton
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:07 am

Zero issues after a week with my new 12v LiFePO battery (not that I expected any). I'll probably take the old 12v lead acid battery to AutoZone or some such for recycling.
For those of you that haven't figured it out yet, I didn't make the swap to save weight, I did it so I don't have to worry about a "dead" 12v battery.
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

KJD
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:11 am

What is the amp hour rating of the new battery compared to the amp hour rating of the old battery ?
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Sold 05/12/2015
2012 Tesla Model S 85

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:19 am

Stanton wrote:Zero issues after a week with my new 12v LiFePO battery (not that I expected any). I'll probably take the old 12v lead acid battery to AutoZone or some such for recycling.
For those of you that haven't figured it out yet, I didn't make the swap to save weight, I did it so I don't have to worry about a "dead" 12v battery.


this would be a lot of work but how about recording a voltage profile for a few weeks?

i also have grave concerns over the reliability of the system especially when 3 people I talk with daily on FB had their cars die on them in just a short holiday weekend (new year's...some as short as 3 days)

i found that the only real risk is if leaving the car sit for extended periods of time. cold weather aggravates any lead acid batt so outside does compound it. there was one WA guy who parked his outside for 3½ days while at the ocean and temps were a bit colder than normal with lows in upper 20's, low 30's and his battery was completely dead. I think he said he measured his at like 7 volts. he jumped it and has had no lasting issues but he puts a lot of miles on his LEAF but also takes several trips a month. he has left his car sit for similar lengths several times without issue but thinking its simply mismanagement catching up.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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TomT
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:17 pm

Interesting since I've left mine for weeks at a time (unplugged) and never had an issue. When I had my two year battery report last month they also tested the 12 volt battery and it got the highest possible marks... Go figure.

DaveinOlyWA wrote:i found that the only real risk is if leaving the car sit for extended periods of time. cold weather aggravates any lead acid batt so outside does compound it. there was one WA guy who parked his outside for 3½ days while at the ocean and temps were a bit colder than normal with lows in upper 20's, low 30's and his battery was completely dead. I think he said he measured his at like 7 volts. he jumped it and has had no lasting issues but he puts a lot of miles on his LEAF but also takes several trips a month. he has left his car sit for similar lengths several times without issue but thinking its simply mismanagement catching up.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2017 Volt Premier. Model 3 reserved.

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