DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12879
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: winter tires and TPMS

Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:58 am

pncguy wrote:I've been driving for 31 years without TPMS and I have never ruined a tire because it was low.

YMMV.


ya and I know people who have been driving 32 years without wearing seat belts and they are still here too...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
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EVOldtimer
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:35 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Nov 2012

Re: winter tires and TPMS

Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:16 pm

Thanks for taking my post in the spirit it was intended.

As an automotive technician, I am constantly amazed by the idiotic ideas that the car makers come up with. I had felt that way about TPMS for years, until I started seeing that it really was useful for the average person. When cloneable sensors came along, I finally felt that we had been given enough repair options that the system came of age, so to speak.

Now the big problem we have, is, how to let the manufacturers know when they have a really bad idea. Like the car that has to be hooked up to a high speed Internet connection in order to have the computer reset so it will know that you replaced the headlight bulb and it is safe to turn that circuit ON again. That is such a stupid idea I bet half of you reading this will think I am making it up! I'm not! Oh and that same car won't let you reset the light circuit if the computer serial numbers don't match anywhere in the car.

This is one of the reasons they want the digital rights act. So they can lock up your car and lock out the non-dealer repair shops. They tried to do it with OBD2, but our "interfering" federal government thought that under the Clean Air Act, they had the authority to mandate a single hardware and software interface that had to be open to everyone. It was brilliant and and it kept us able to work on cars. Without it there would be pretty much no alternatives to the dealer for anything but tires and brakes.

A Leaf example of bad design (IMHO) is the shifter. When you put a car in gear, the lever should stay in that physical location. That tells you that you have selected a specific gear and you can feel and see it is there. Because the Leafs's lever pops back into a rest position, we are dependent on the debounce software to be sure we have not moved the shifter too fast or too early. I am often finding myself trying to accelerate away in N, because I moved the shifter too fast or too early after key on. I am still having this problem after driving a Leaf since 2012 (please be nice here....).

Another Leaf bad design (shared by most manufacturers) is the smart key-push button start. I have been driving with this type of system since 2004 when it appeared in my '04 Prius. (IMHO, again) It is very easy to get out of sync with the button pushing and find yourself in ACC or even back OFF again when trying to power up. It just happened to me the other night in my '15 SL when I tried to power back up and check my charging completion times.

Compare our system to a Rogue, which I got as a rental car a few years back when my Leaf was in for software completion. (I say completion, 'cus if the manufacturers would write the software correctly the first time, us consumers would not be on the hook paying for upgrades for the rest of the life of the car.) The Rogue had the same key fob and smart capabilities, but the ignition switch was a hefty bump on the steering column, just like a key sticking out. It acted just like a key, just like all of us drivers are used to, but it was just a permanent bump. You would turn it like a key into ACC, On, and of course start is optional. All of the software recognition/authorization went on behinds the scenes, just like the push button start. The other advantage of the Rogue bump system is that it can be physically tied to a physical switch, and not a software switch. Toyota has had serious software problems that can send their cars into a redundant loop and the push button command interrupt is not seen. This would appear to be why some Toyotas have run away, causing fatalities. My Point is that if you have a physical switch which the driver can turn, you are not dependent upon software to see and interpret button pushing. (Which may sound simple, but ask any software engineer how easy switch debouncing software is.) If I had a hand in writing software standards, physical switches would be encouraged where possible in any critical safety systems. Or at least some better driver feedback than some tiny character on a dim display.

OMG So sorry for the rant.

One more thing about TPMS, about the type that has the transmitter in the wheel, like the LEAF. The transmitter in the wheel is a dumb microcontroller. It just sends out a string of data wirelessly. When we clone a sensor, we program the clone to arrange the data in the right order, and what the ID number is that it needs to spoof. All of the learning about which sensor belongs on the car, or is on which corner, is done in the TPMS controller/computer in the car (not the wheel). This is the learning that needs to be done.

How this learning is done is COMPLETELY up to the manufacturer. Some of them have tried to keep this work in house by making it necessary to use a dealer scan tool to change settings in the TPMS controller. Other manufacturers will let the controller learn an new sensor if it sees the same signal over a range of speeds. in other words, just install the sensor and drive the car till the light goes off. (Can I just say DUH now....) Can you see why we get frustrated?

So using it or not is your choice, just be informed about it and know your options and risks.

Happy motoring
2015 Grey SL Nokian WR G3 tires
2015 Grey SV Nokian WR G3 tires
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Twin Cities Minnesnowta

XeonPony
Posts: 316
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Leaf Number: 413826
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Re: winter tires and TPMS

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:29 am

EVOldtimer wrote:"I've been driving for 31 years without TPMS and I have never ruined a tire because it was low."

Good for you. I never have either, and I have been driving much longer than that.

Now go to any tire store and ask them how many tires come in an an average day, destroyed because someone ran them low. Or better yet, lets go back and find all of those people killed or injured for life in the Ford Explorer rollover crashes (which were mostly precipitated by low tire pressures) and ask them (or their survivors) if they think TPMS would have been a good addition to their cars. Nobody really cares if you think it is a good idea or not. It is here. It is the law. And the average driver needs it..


I call it interfering with natural selection, to me it is a bad thing, stupid was meant to hurt. Problem is it does not hurt enough!
That's all I have to say about that.
2013 SV Leaf, Level 2 charger, so far all works great! 130Km daily, 100% charge at night on 240 then trickle charge for 8H durring the day on 120v.

Level 2 charge starts at 130am environmental starts at 6am to 25c for a toasty warm defrosted car!

goodluckcharlie
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Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:53 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Dec 2015
Location: NJ

Re: winter tires and TPMS

Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:25 pm

What a great post! I have to be honest with you, I have never considered the TPMS issue because it's not an option with my two current vehicles. So, my vehicle relies on me to be mindful of it's maintenance. Before reading this thread, I would have thought this was just another "fancy" doodad that a car company wants me to spend my money on. After reading a few of the posts here, I think I changed my mind. Thanks for the thoughtful conversation!

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ttweed
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Leaf Number: 1317
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Re: winter tires and TPMS

Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:26 am

You can buy new replacement TPMS sensors from Titan for as little as $32/ea. There's not much reason to run without them,
http://www.titantpms.com/tpms/nissan-leaf-tire-pressure-sensors/TPMS-fits-Nissan-Leaf-2013-Tire-Pressure-Sensor_2

TT
Tom Tweed
La Jolla, CA
Plowshare Media
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1st bar lost at 31,953 miles
2nd bar lost at 38,685 miles
3rd bar lost at 50,711 miles
4th bar lost at 59,758 miles after 64 months
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BrockWI
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Re: winter tires and TPMS

Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:16 am

So I am tempted to purchase some sensors now that they look quite a bit less expensive. My question is can any of them "clone" the existing ones so the car doesn't notice or would it still require a leafspy (which I have) swap out each tire change?
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4 ton GSHP
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@60k miles - 61.72Ahr - 94 SOH - 95.61 Hx - 268 GID

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dgpcolorado
Posts: 3021
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Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: winter tires and TPMS

Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:25 pm

pncguy wrote:I've been driving for 31 years without TPMS and I have never ruined a tire because it was low.

YMMV.
I've been driving for longer than that and I destroyed a fairly new tire doing 65 on I-84 in Oregon last May because I couldn't tell it was punctured until too late (it was a rear tire and the road was fairly rough). Lots of smoke and some luck that other drivers let me get safely over to the shoulder. Had a full size spare and pump so I was able to change it and be on my way.

After that experience, I've become a fan of TPMS since it never would have happened if that old car had them.
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TimLee
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: winter tires and TPMS

Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:28 am

BrockWI wrote:So I am tempted to purchase some sensors now that they look quite a bit less expensive. My question is can any of them "clone" the existing ones so the car doesn't notice or would it still require a leafspy (which I have) swap out each tire change?

Quote from their site:

A properly formatted scan tool is required to learn new sensor IDs when replacing sensors.

Any new TPMS will require scan tool to put in the correct code that the LEAF is looking for.

LEAF Spy Pro can only register tire position for TPMS sensors that have the correct code for the LEAF.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

TimLee
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Re: winter tires and TPMS

Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:36 am

dgpcolorado wrote:... After that experience, I've become a fan of TPMS since it never would have happened if that old car had them.

An aftermarket TPMS is an option and a good idea.

My old 1994 Taursus SHO has one.

By Johnson Controls.
Just happened to see it at Goodyear store that was installing Tire Rack tires for me.

Four sensors and replacement rearview mirror that displays pressures.

I think whole thing was under $50 but that was about fifteen years ago.
No installation cost as tire mounting cost included putting in TPMS sensor.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

BrockWI
Posts: 617
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Re: winter tires and TPMS

Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:43 am

So do I understand this correctly that if I did get TPMS for my winter tires I would have to bring the car in to the dealership every spring and fall when I swap the tires? That's not going to happen, then I will just live with the warning light and check the tires like I have for 30 years...

Or is it once the Leaf "knows" the winter tires I can swap them with Leaf Spy Pro?
3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - 8 L16's
4 ton GSHP
2003 VW TDI 170k miles - 52 mpg lifetime
evse level 2 - Clipper Creek HSC-40
2013 S model with QC package Mar of 2013
@60k miles - 61.72Ahr - 94 SOH - 95.61 Hx - 268 GID

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