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jlv
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Re: Cabin Air Cooling the Battery

Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:16 pm

arnis wrote:Exactly. BTW, Tesla's chemistry is NOT good in cold climates where I live (or Norway).
That's the first time I've heard anything like that. Their sales seem pretty good in Norway: https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/tesla-sa ... ry-issues/
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17) 33K miTesla S 75D (3/17) 27K mi
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Cabin Air Cooling the Battery

Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:44 pm

I assume that it's a pack temp of <0C that is the problem, so if you have a garage and keep it warmed to at least 1C you don't have a problem. And most rich people have heated garages. ;-) I have to keep the packs on my two-wheeled EVs above freezing to charge them, and it isn't hard - I just keep the garage temp to no lower than about 30F (for short periods) and generally at least 40F.
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GRA
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Re: Cabin Air Cooling the Battery

Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:07 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:No. In California most LEAFs need active cooling.


Or perhaps different battery chemistry for hotter places. The problem with one size fits all is that it doesn't.

Sure, but that gets very expensive, especially if you're trying to achieve economies of scale. Active cooling costs more per car, but if you need it in many if not most climates, it's the minimum acceptable standard, and probably cheaper than maintaining multiple packs. If Nissan had limited LEAF sales to NW Europe, the PNW west of the Cascades, Canada and areas with similar climates the batteries would do fine. Since they didn't and never intended to do so, they need packs capable of dealing with the whole range of climates, at least until regional sales volumes increase to the point where specialized packs make financial sense.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Cabin Air Cooling the Battery

Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:14 pm

goldbrick wrote:
arnis wrote:Schrödinger's Leaf has a chemistry that fits everybody. And doesn't.


Of course the problem is you can't tell which it is until you buy it to find out. Maybe if it was just leased the answer could remain uncertain and then you wouldn't have to worry about it.

You'd need to add a disclaimer on the pink slip: This car contains a cat, which may or not be dead.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

arnis
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Re: Cabin Air Cooling the Battery

Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:20 am

LeftieBiker wrote:And most rich people have heated garages.


We are talking about car owners, not specifically rich.
And no, rich reasonable people do not have climate controlled garages
nor do owners park their car at home when not at home.
Europeans are not resource wasting occupants of this planet.

One day, EU will have Energy label for EV's as well.
Tesla S/X is far far from efficient compared to other EV's, especially in cold.
It behaves like ICE vehicle in the cold - first 10-15 minutes a lot of fuel is wasted
on drivetrain itself. Not ok for short commute trips. Cabin heat is excluded.


Can't solve efficiency problem with warm garage.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Cabin Air Cooling the Battery

Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:43 pm

We are talking about car owners, not specifically rich.
And no, rich reasonable people do not have climate controlled garages
nor do owners park their car at home when not at home.
Europeans are not resource wasting occupants of this planet.


If you drive a Tesla, you are rich, relatively speaking. And note that I wrote "heated garages" not "climate controlled garages." They just need to be kept above freezing, which is easy with an attached garage, or even one that just has good wiring.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

arnis
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Re: Cabin Air Cooling the Battery

Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:09 am

I think you are stuck with 'merican point of view.
No we shall not heat rooms we don't live in. End of story.
If we do, we should change our behaviour.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

LeftieBiker
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Re: Cabin Air Cooling the Battery

Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:55 am

Now we've gone from what's real to what you think should be real.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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Nubo
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Re: Cabin Air Cooling the Battery

Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:58 pm

arnis wrote:
WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:No. In California most LEAFs need active cooling.


Or perhaps different battery chemistry for hotter places. The problem with one size fits all is that it doesn't.


Exactly. BTW, Tesla's chemistry is NOT good in cold climates where I live (or Norway).
It is not acceptable that battery can not charge (at all) below 0*C. Nonsense. It's not like it has water for electrolyte :|


Acceptable or not, it's a consequence of the battery chemistry; not nonsense. Charging below that temperature risks copper plating of the anode, if memory serves.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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