Leaf down pothole takes out front & rear drivers side tires

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DannyAmes

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2011
Messages
60
Location
Brisbane CA
Get a distressed call from the wife today while taking kids to school this morning.
She informs me, "I went through a pothole and I have two flat tires". I'm like oh crap I know these Leaf tires are not readily available and did not have enough time to check all the tire dealers in my area and sure enough their going to take 2 days and now going into the weekend really bites as it will be Monday when the tires are delivered and fixed hopefully. It would be nice to have found out in-advance who has these specific tires so if one ends up in a similar dilemma you can decide where to have your Leaf towed, but time was running out.
She claims she was not going fast around 25 MPH. I took some pictures and have filed a report with the county that has jurisdiction of the roadway and also will file a claim. I hope in the future more tire centers stock these 205/55R16 Bridgestone Ecopia EP422 tires I know with Tirerack they want $208.41 with shipping. The tire repair guy is upfront and says he's charging me 20 extra per tire and that checks out. Hopefully the tire pressure sensors aren't damaged. Should know more on Monday when they spin up the new tires and check everything. At leasts I know the low tire pressure alert works.
 
Wow, that sucks... I'm glad to hear that you're filing a claim - I'm not sure everyone knows that the load road authority can be held responsible for damage caused by improper road maintenance in some cases. Good luck!
 
The stock LEAF tire size is very common (205/55R16) and there are a number of good LRR tires available in that size. To avoid going without the car for a couple days I would have considered getting 2 tires of a different model and put them either on the front or the rear of the car.
 
I would wait the two days to have matching tires all around. Different tires front and back can cause all kinds of handling problems and is to be strongly avoided.

I'd also have the alignment checked after an impact that severe.

(This is one reason why I have an extra tire just waiting in my garage... Of course, only one would not have helped in this situation!)

drees said:
The stock LEAF tire size is very common (205/55R16) and there are a number of good LRR tires available in that size. To avoid going without the car for a couple days I would have considered getting 2 tires of a different model and put them either on the front or the rear of the car.
 
My condolences. Must be some horrendous potholes in CA for a 25 mph impact to take out two tires.
Location and pictures would be of interest to those in CA. Pictures would be of interest to everyone, to understand the type of pothole that can take out two tires and cost $500 to repair.
I'm stunned by the price of these LRR tires.
But I have not previously used LRR tires, as last time I replaced tires 3 -4 years back, most of the reports at that time were of very poor handling.
Is forgetting LRR tires and replacing all with non-LRRs that cost markedly less and have better handling a better economic and safety choice down the road?
(Or doing that now and selling the two limited use LRRs on Ebay?)
 
TimLee said:
Is forgetting LRR tires and replacing all with non-LRRs that cost markedly less and have better handling a better economic and safety choice down the road?
leafrange_rollingresistance.gif


Now every time I post a graph from my model I'm careful to put a disclaimer on it, and this is no exception: the model is very simplistic and makes a lot of assumptions. However, as it stands it seems rolling resistance makes a pathetically small contribution to range variation :| I'd be glad to be wrong about this, though. Rolling resistance coefficients of 0.0025 and 0.0200 are chosen as extreme cases on either end to try and get the lines to diverge - I have no idea what the actual coefficients might be for the EP422 and a normal tire.


But back on topic: That's not a pothole, that's a crater! In fact this is the first time I've heard of TWO flat tires from this type of incident. Not only would I have the suspension checked, I hope the rims aren't messed up... I've seen bend (steel) rims from pothole hits before...
=Smidge=
 
DannyAmes said:
Get a distressed call from the wife today while taking kids to school this morning.
She informs me, "I went through a pothole and I have two flat tires". I'm like oh crap I know these Leaf tires are not readily available and did not have enough time to check all the tire dealers in my area and sure enough their going to take 2 days and now going into the weekend really bites as it will be Monday when the tires are delivered and fixed hopefully. It would be nice to have found out in-advance who has these specific tires so if one ends up in a similar dilemma you can decide where to have your Leaf towed, but time was running out.
She claims she was not going fast around 25 MPH. I took some pictures and have filed a report with the county that has jurisdiction of the roadway and also will file a claim. I hope in the future more tire centers stock these 205/55R16 Bridgestone Ecopia EP422 tires I know with Tirerack they want $208.41 with shipping. The tire repair guy is upfront and says he's charging me 20 extra per tire and that checks out. Hopefully the tire pressure sensors aren't damaged. Should know more on Monday when they spin up the new tires and check everything. At leasts I know the low tire pressure alert works.


So you are paying $200 shipping on two tires! Where are you getting these crazy prices? These tires are $100 or less and are a common tire. Costco and tire rack sell them for this price, don't mix tires on the car that's a mistake. I would also have the alignment checked as there is a good chance it's out now.
 
On another thread I asked if I should replace the tires immediately when the car comes, and was advised that the OEM tires are very good. (My ONLY concern with tires is safety. Cost and range are not important to me compared to safety.) Given Smidge204's graph, and the additional experience people have had since my earlier post, I'd be interested if the consensus remains the same?
 
Two thoughts. One what was the tire pressure set at? I believe the manual says for 36 psi, but I have mine (from the dealer) set at 40 which would help resist going flat over a pothole. Two, be sure to have the wheel rims checked carefully to see that the rim is not damaged before mounting new tires.
 
DannyAmes said:
Get a distressed call from the wife today while taking kids to school this morning.
She informs me, "I went through a pothole and I have two flat tires". I'm like oh crap I know these Leaf tires are not readily available and did not have enough time to check all the tire dealers in my area and sure enough their going to take 2 days and now going into the weekend really bites as it will be Monday when the tires are delivered and fixed hopefully. It would be nice to have found out in-advance who has these specific tires so if one ends up in a similar dilemma you can decide where to have your Leaf towed, but time was running out.
She claims she was not going fast around 25 MPH. I took some pictures and have filed a report with the county that has jurisdiction of the roadway and also will file a claim. I hope in the future more tire centers stock these 205/55R16 Bridgestone Ecopia EP422 tires I know with Tirerack they want $208.41 with shipping. The tire repair guy is upfront and says he's charging me 20 extra per tire and that checks out. Hopefully the tire pressure sensors aren't damaged. Should know more on Monday when they spin up the new tires and check everything. At leasts I know the low tire pressure alert works.
The Tire rack web site has a great section on LRR tires and they have tested several for resistance and economy etc. They tested the the tires on Prius and it is quite well done. You might want to give it a read.

Frank
 
I was driving a Dodge Caravan with my grandparents that don't speak any english (and I don't speak italian) coming out of the tri-borough bridge toll booth on the Bronx side looking more at merging from the 20 booth lanes down to three lanes than what was in the road and ended up hitting a donut (the spare tire kind, not the ones that give you a spare tire) that someone left in the middle of the road. I blew out both tires and bent both rims..

I stopped on the little bridge just before it splits between the Deegan and the Bruckner and changed one tire. Now THAT was scary. The TBTA towed me to the bottom of the next exit, which is not exactly the nicest neighborhood.. I drove around on the flat until I found a used tire place and bought a used tire and put it on the less damaged rim, which actually held air.

Not looking forward to my first LEAF flat, but I know your pain.
 
daniel said:
On another thread I asked if I should replace the tires immediately when the car comes, and was advised that the OEM tires are very good. (My ONLY concern with tires is safety. Cost and range are not important to me compared to safety.)
To me, in tires, "safety" includes "a relative surfeit of traction". Better traction gives better stopping distance, better control in emergency maneuvers, etc. As such, I wouldn't consider the Ecopias "very good", if one is talking about "safety".

That said, from my experience, the combination of (supposedly) low CG, relatively decent F/R weight distribution, and the super low-RPM torquey-ness of the motor, makes for a much better handling car than I had expected. It's not going to embarrass any of the "sports cars, given equal drivers, any time soon, but the whole LEAF combo does not feel unsafe to me, as far as maneuverability in emergencies is concerned.

daniel said:
Given Smidge204's graph,
That graph is certainly very interesting, even if its author did say that the model behind it is "very simplistic and makes a lot of assumptions". If I can run higher performing tires without losing much range (less than 5% at 50mph, say, AFAICT from the graph), that'd be dynamite.

daniel said:
and the additional experience people have had since my earlier post, I'd be interested if the consensus remains the same?
I do not think that there was a such consensus about the LEAF's OEM tires. If there was, I most certainly disagree with it!
 
aqn said:
daniel said:
On another thread I asked if I should replace the tires immediately when the car comes, and was advised that the OEM tires are very good. (My ONLY concern with tires is safety. Cost and range are not important to me compared to safety.)
To me, in tires, "safety" includes "a relative surfeit of traction". Better traction gives better stopping distance, better control in emergency maneuvers, etc. As such, I wouldn't consider the Ecopias "very good", if one is talking about "safety".

That said, from my experience, the combination of (supposedly) low CG, relatively decent F/R weight distribution, and the super low-RPM torquey-ness of the motor, makes for a much better handling car than I had expected. It's not going to embarrass any of the "sports cars, given equal drivers, any time soon, but the whole LEAF combo does not feel unsafe to me, as far as maneuverability in emergencies is concerned.

daniel said:
Given Smidge204's graph,
That graph is certainly very interesting, even if its author did say that the model behind it is "very simplistic and makes a lot of assumptions". If I can run higher performing tires without losing much range (less than 5% at 50mph, say, AFAICT from the graph), that'd be dynamite.

daniel said:
and the additional experience people have had since my earlier post, I'd be interested if the consensus remains the same?
I do not think that there was a such consensus about the LEAF's OEM tires. If there was, I most certainly disagree with it!
One aspect of safety that you do not address in your post is handling on wet roads.

Maybe I exaggerated when I spoke of a consensus. I asked the question and several people said the OEM tires were very good, and much better than the notoriously bad OEM tires on the 2004 Prius. Nobody posted different on that thread while I was reading it.

I appreciate hearing your opinion.
 
Far too much energy is being put into these tires, if you want to read about tires go to Prius chat and see what they are doing as Prius drivers have many miles of experience.
 
Smidge204 said:
leafrange_rollingresistance.gif


Now every time I post a graph from my model I'm careful to put a disclaimer on it, and this is no exception: the model is very simplistic and makes a lot of assumptions. However, as it stands it seems rolling resistance makes a pathetically small contribution to range variation :| I'd be glad to be wrong about this, though. Rolling resistance coefficients of 0.0025 and 0.0200 are chosen as extreme cases on either end to try and get the lines to diverge - I have no idea what the actual coefficients might be for the EP422 and a normal tire.
Doesn't look right.

Rolling resistance should have a higher effect in low speeds than high speeds (where air resistance is more important).
 
You're right, of course, and it's been bugging me since I posted it. Modifying the formulas fixed that but breaks everything else (unless we really can expect the LEAF to go 300+ miles!). I was looking at it yesterday for a bit and I'm just about ready to start over. The annoying part is how it watched the output from ecomodder's calculator pretty closely. :?

=Smidge=
 
Here is a generic graph I found that seems to match more closely what I intuitively think would be the case: Tire rolling resistance increases linearly with speed. This is for bicycles but it should be the same for cars.

http://www.schwalbetires.com/images/e_img_1162_1.gif

FYI:

Which factors affect rolling resistance?

Tire pressure, tire diameter, tire construction, tire tread and other factors all have an effect on rolling resistance. The higher the tire pressure, the less is tire deformation and thus the rolling resistance. Small diameter tires have a higher rolling resistance at the same tire pressure, because tire deformation is proportionally more important, in other words the tire is "less round". Wider tires roll better than narrow ones. This assertion generally generates skepticism, nevertheless at the same tire pressure a narrow tire deflects more and so deforms more. Obviously, tire construction also has an effect on rolling resistance. The less material is used, the less material there is to deform. And the more flexible the material is, such as the rubber compound, the less energy is lost through deformation. Generally, smooth treads roll better than coarse treads. Tall lugs and wide gaps usually have a detrimental effect on rolling resistance.

Why do wide tires roll better than narrow ones?

The answer to this question lies in tire deflection. Each tire is flattened a little under load. This creates a flat contact area. At the same tire pressure, a wide and a narrow tire have the same contact area. A wide tire is flattened over its width whereas a narrow tire has a slimmer but longer contact area. The flattened area can be considered as a counterweight to tire rotation. Because of the longer flattened area of the narrow tire, the wheel loses more of its "roundness" and produces more deformation during rotation. However, in the wide tire, the radial length of the flattened area is shorter, making the tire "rounder" and so it rolls better.

So why does everyone use a wider tire?

Wide tires only roll better at the same inflation pressure, but narrow tires can be inflated to higher pressures than wide tires. However, they then obviously give a less comfortable ride. In addition to this, narrow tires have an advantage over wide ones at higher speeds, as they provide less air resistance. In practice, the energy saving is even greater than in theory as the elasticity of the tires absorbs road shocks, which would otherwise be transferred to the vehicle and so saves energy.

Smidge204 said:
You're right, of course, and it's been bugging me since I posted it. Modifying the formulas fixed that but breaks everything else (unless we really can expect the LEAF to go 300+ miles!). I was looking at it yesterday for a bit and I'm just about ready to start over. The annoying part is how it watched the output from ecomodder's calculator pretty closely.
 
Leaf is back up and running, hurray...!

Where:
The location is in California near Candlestick park of San Francisco on a road used by fans typically leaving the park that would need to head back into San Francisco, its a short bit of road called Harney Way, it is the road that leads you to Hwy 101 north bound (AKA Bayshore Fwy on this section) the pothole is on the left side of the road it is about 2 tenths of a mile before you loop up and around onto the freeway on ramp.

Report:
Luckily no other damage was found to rims or axles and pressure sensors.
Tires have been replaced and balanced, they checked and inspected for any other damage and none was found. Front & rear wheel alignment was performed. I did a see small patch of about a pea size scratch like scuff mark on the rims but appears minor.
Charge remaining in the propulsion battery pack car held up just fine after about 5 days of not being plugged in. Went in with about 66 Miles and had about 65 remaining when I got it. They did an on road test drive to check throughly.

Please advise:
Nissan calls for front & rear P.S.I to be 36 having said that I know we have some recommendations on this forum for 40 P.S.I. does that really help prevent damage from potholes? It seems plausible to me but would like to know if their is some data to back this up.

Cost:
My total out the door cost came to $392.26.

Now I can finally complete the claim form and press on with the red tape process, yuck...

Good to have the Leaf back at least.

Danny
 
DannyAmes said:
Leaf is back up and running, hurray...!
Congrats!
DannyAmes said:
Please advise:
Nissan calls for front & rear P.S.I to be 36 having said that I know we have some recommendations on this forum for 40 P.S.I. does that really help prevent damage from potholes? It seems plausible to me but would like to know if their is some data to back this up.
Sorry, no data, not even anecdotal data, just some obersvations and conjectures:

A tire is like a balloon: it's easier to squish an underinflated balloon. Overinflation probably helps a tire resist deformation (at the expense of comfort, and possibly more wear in the center of the tread). Overinflation of up to 8-10 psi probably won't hurt, considering that overinflation of up to 7.5 psi is recommended for elevated speeds.

Murphy's Law dictates that there will always a pot hole big/deep enough such that no amount of overinflation will help. It's up to each person to balance protection and comfort and wear when choosing a tire pressure.

Personally, I like to run between 0-4 psi more than the recommended pressure. It's a preference; it's not based on any rigorous hand waving :D .
 
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