QueenBee
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:29 pm

LEAFfan wrote:The next time someone tries that one, make sure to tell them that the driver can get a text message to remind them to plug it in. At least with the Blink, it can do that.


Carwings texts me if I'm at home and forget to charge. Then if I ignore that GreenCharge pings me at 10:00 PM as a fail safe reminder.

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surfingslovak
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:37 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:This quote sums it up for me:

Conspiracy Theorist to RandyImage

"There are many things Russ needs to find, aside from the missing battery capacity gauge, including some basic knowledge of software engineering and electrochemistry. Some humility and human decency would be good too. If that's not too much to ask."

Oh, good! I might be familiar with the secret identity of this particular conspiracy theorist. It looks like Russ will tone it down a bit. Although you never know with some of these folks. I think they feel so passionate, and are such selective listeners, that they would not know the truth if it hit them in the face.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:06 am

I wonder if it is possible to engineer/invent a material with a heat of fusion higher than water.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

Stoaty
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:38 am

Guys, guys, guys (and gals): isn't this thread about the battery warranty enhancement??? :o
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

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mwalsh
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:08 am

Stoaty wrote:Guys, guys, guys (and gals): isn't this thread about the battery warranty enhancement??? :o


I'm guessing when we hear something new worth talking about, we'll talk about it.

Nature abhors a vacuum.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 71,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
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L1 EVSE upgrade.
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AV L2 EVSE.

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TickTock
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:42 pm

drees wrote:
Stoaty wrote:Say what you will, but you are assuming that the 10 degrees C. is the standard to use. In testing the "research" battery I mentioned previously, NEC estimated 6.85 degrees degrees C. for a doubling of degradation.

The NEC study uses the same assumption. Their 6.85C doubling figure is based on the assumption that when the car is operating, battery temperature is 10C above ambient and when the car is stored, battery temperature is 5C above ambient - in other words since they assume you're driving when it's typically hotter, and that the battery cools off immediately the effect of ambient temperature is exaggerated over Arrhenious equation. I don't think this is very accurate for a number of reasons.

Stoaty wrote:A lot of folks in Arizona are doing worse than the Battery Aging Model suggests, so I have little confidence that the degradation won't be substantially higher than the model predicts.

it's easy to bake your car in a hot garage all summer...

Stoaty wrote:My Gids at 80% charge (212 Gids) didn't budge for 6 months during the cool season, but over the last 3 months I have lost 9 Gids (203 at 80% charge). It's all about the heat.

GIDs are affected by temperature - there's no way battery capacity goes up as the weather cools down as TickTock has documented (it remains to be seen whether or not the P3227 update fixes this).


Sorry for bumping but I only just saw this comment. I don't see anywhere in my data that suggests capacity increases in cool weather. Quite the contrary - I see steady decline year round. GIDs increase in the fall, but not capacity.

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surfingslovak
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:46 pm

TickTock wrote:GIDs increase in the fall, but not capacity.

Thanks for the comment. Is there any indication, however subjective, that higher GIDs translate to more range or do they simply get corrected downward more quickly?

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TickTock
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:34 am

surfingslovak wrote:
TickTock wrote:GIDs increase in the fall, but not capacity.

Thanks for the comment. Is there any indication, however subjective, that higher GIDs translate to more range or do they simply get corrected downward more quickly?

Nothing in my data suggests that my range or capacity increased when I saw my gids increase seasonally starting at the beginning of October or degraded at a faster rate when the gids plummeted starting in March. However, I do think the latest sw update did slightly increase my available capacity/range and that was accompanied by an increase in gids.

Below is my capacity chart to date. I annotated it to try to avoid some of the confusion since the gid readings (blue dots) have a lot of volatility and in some cases almost smear into the gid readings of the prior year (i.e. variation almost as high as the annual degradation). The 2011,2012,&2013 labels and associated lines are there to help distinguish between the blue dots from year to year.

    blue dots : gids (times 0.08 to give them the same units as the wall power measurements)
    red, orange, green dots : power measured from the wall to go from 5 gids to 100% charge for 2011,2012,and 2013 respectively
    purple dots : linear fit to the power from the wall to show general average trend.

I annotated the first time my car was reset in 2012 for the Stanfield test where you can see a marked increase in the gids (blue) but no obvious increase in capacity (0 to 100 wall power (orange)).

I also annotated the sw update on 7/10/2013 where you can see a clear increase in gids (blue) and a slight increase in wall power (green). I think my data does show that capacity (green) did increase slightly for me after the sw update.

In short, the data shows that, with the exception of the sw update, capacity is declining steadily but the gids fluctuated quite dramatically with the seasons. It will be interesting to see if the seasonal variation in the gids persists this fall (if the improved accuracy and temperature compensation will translate to less seasonal variation in gids).
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opencar
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:50 am

commend you on your dilligence/discipline in recording consistent data to the benefit of the community here! what magnitude of increased capacity are you estimating after the P3227 update?

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TickTock
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:16 am

I'd say about 2% on average. Interestingly, if you look at the volatility (daily variation) of the green dots starting about 2 weeks after the update, it does appear to have improved. This supports the assertion by Andy Palmer and other Nissan reps that the sw update improved the accuracy of the instrumentation. In my case, that accuracy improvement has not so much increased the max daily capacity but rather the min daily capacity (and average daily capacity). Said differently, it appears to allow me to get to my true full capacity more consistently day to day.

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