Stoaty
Posts: 4467
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Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:54 am

drees wrote:Regardless - driving the stinker during the hottest two months of the year when air quality is typically at it's worst seems to defeat a lot of the purpose of the LEAF - especially when out on the "glide path" the difference in capacity between EOL at 10 vs 12 years is minimal.

I had some time this weekend to do an analysis of GHG emissions under different scenarios of driving the ICE on hot days to try to add extra life to the Leaf Battery. Very interesting results. Data was taken from the Lifecycle Analysis done for CARB by UCLA:

http://www.environment.ucla.edu/media_I ... rh-ptd.pdf

I took the following estimates from that study:

CO2 equivalents emitted to manufacture Leaf = 9,000 kg / 1.5 batteries assumed manufactured to get full matching life = 6,000 kg per battery
ICE vehicle CO2 equivalents emitted per mile = 60,000 kg / 180,000 miles = 0.33 kg per mile

--Assume that Leaf battery lasts 8 years under "normal" use, but would last 10 years if not driven in extremely hot climates for 8 weeks in summer. We can thus allocate 750 kg CO2 equivalents per year of use of the battery. If two years are saved, about 1500 kg CO2 would be saved
--my commute is 160 miles per week, so 8 weeks would be 1280 miles, which would be 422 kg CO2 extra emitted per year by taking the ICE vehicle
--over 8 years, the ICE vehicle would emit 3,379 kg CO2 equivalents extra to save the Leaf battery for 2 years longer life.

Thus driving the Leaf all the time would mean an extra 1500 kg CO2 would have to be emitted to build a new battery for the Leaf to last the two more years (allocated 2/8 = 1/4 of CO2 emissions to get 2 years of life from the new battery). However, in order to get that savings one would have to emit the extra 3,379 kg CO2 by driving the ICE vehicle. The break even point would be if one could gain 2 years extra life of the battery by driving the ICE vehicle only 3.5 weeks out of the year.

Conclusion: given the assumptions above it is better for the environment from a CO2 emissions standpoint for me to drive the Leaf all the time. Serious food for thought.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:45 am

Interesting analysis Stoaty.
Only issues / questions I have are:
Didn't see the CO2 emissions for the LEAF? Surely the electricity from the grid in West Los Angeles isn't zero CO2 emissions? But maybe you have solar panels and total generation greater than your grid use.
Not sure if the LEAF battery manufacture CO2 emissions are from scratch, but I'm guessing they are from scratch. Likely that your LEAF battery at end of life will be recycled by Nissan, and remanufacture into a new LEAF battery will be at a substantially lower CO2 emission.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

Stoaty
Posts: 4467
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:56 am

TimLee wrote:Didn't see the CO2 emissions for the LEAF? Surely the electricity from the grid in West Los Angeles isn't zero CO2 emissions?

I have 100% LA DWP Green Power, for which I pay 3 cents a kwh more. Supposedly, DWP contracts for renewable power for the Green Power program, above and beyond that required by the renewable energy standard. While I remain somewhat doubtful that this is in fact true, it's the only way I have to vote with my dollars for clean energy. Unfortunately, there isn't enough room on our condo roof to install solar.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

TimLee
Posts: 2811
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:15 pm

Stoaty wrote:I have 100% LA DWP Green Power, for which I pay 3 cents a kwh more. Supposedly, DWP contracts for renewable power for the Green Power program, above and beyond that required by the renewable energy standard. While I remain somewhat doubtful that this is in fact true, it's the only way I have to vote with my dollars for clean energy. Unfortunately, there isn't enough room on our condo roof to install solar.

I commend your commitment. :D
TVA has something similar and offers Green Power.
They also supposedly have installed renewable power to match the Green Power they've sold, but as you say there have been some doubts / questions.
TVA hasn't gotten many takers on their Green Power though. I considered it when they first offered it a few years back and I was working for TVA at the time.
But buying Green Power would have doubled my electric bill. Partly because their residential rates are pretty reasonable, around 10 cents per kWh.
TVA doesn't have the renewable state mandate that LA DWP has.
They offer great incentives for installing solar, but with the low number of purchases of Green Power, they have been limiting how much solar they will let join the program. Leaving the solar installers with a boom of demand while the program is open, and not many interested customers the other 70% of the year.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13141
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Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:10 pm

WetEV wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:...the 4 bar option (which i thought was never really viable) is not an option for me or nearly anyone else i know. i do know a few that rarely put more than 40 miles on their LEAF in a day who would be ok but they are far and few between and that scenario simply does not play well for a mass market goal.
I'm not so sure Dave. I could make it work if I could do interim charging on my longer trips. Not as convenient as now, of course, but doable. I just don't have any public charge stations in my area. But that's not a problem for the vast majority of LEAF owners, who do have access to public charge stations.

You are already doing interim charging to stretch your range. Surely three bar losers could also do that until they hit four bars and were eligible for a new battery. This is mostly an issue for the 20% of us who purchased our LEAFs, plus any used LEAF buyers who have 50+ mile range needs.

Still, you are probably right that it is an impediment for the "mass market".


As someone has already noted, surveys of drivers find that well over half drive less than 35 miles a day. "Mass market", yes.

The point to the 4-bar 70% EOL (or even less) is economics. Batteries are expensive, the more miles you can get out of one the better off you are. The longer you use it, the more miles you get. Should get about twice as many miles out of a pack to 70% 4-bar loss as with 80% 2 bar. Should get even more miles if you can live with 60% or more reduction in capacity.



ya; that 35 mile a day thing is a statistic. but its a commute. my commute is 45 miles a day but I average closer to 75 miles a day due to "other" now, can I say i drive 75 or more miles a day? 2-5 times a week I can say yes but with that range, you can see the dilemma.

what we dont have is a well thought out public charging infrastructure which means mass adoption of EVs wont happen quickly. We all think its ok to stop here and there and charge for 10 minutes or whatever it takes to get us to where we want to go but that idea is alien to others.

Now, why is it alien? that is a good question since they essentially do the same thing every time they get gas. They dont seem to equate the fact that only occasionally will they want or need to charge publicly just as they only occasionally get gas.

Another thing to look at is when someone looks at the range of an EV, they dont look at their typical daily drive. they look at where they "might" want to go. I see it at every public encounter. its always "oh nice, but I cant go to my Sister's house 60 miles away" but then they later admit they havent been there in 2 years...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 8743 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 111.39 Ahr , SOH 96.49, Hx 114.98
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JPWhite
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:27 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Now, why is it alien? that is a good question since they essentially do the same thing every time they get gas. They dont seem to equate the fact that only occasionally will they want or need to charge publicly just as they only occasionally get gas.


Folks get hung up on the fact it may take 'up to 7 hours' to charge. Most only pump gas when the tank is 'empty', they don't understand you may want to add just enough to get you home. Adding enough fuel 'just to get home' to a gas car driver truly is alien. I mean how dumb is that? You'd only have to fill up tomorrow!! They don't understand the power of having your 'gas pump' at home.

If you can finally get a gas car driver to admit an EV could work for them, they may say "Ah but I'm forgetful, I'd forget to plug it in then it would take too long to charge". There really isn't an answer to that one.
--
JP White
http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com
Blue SL-e, Res 4/22/10, Ord 3/29/11, Del 7/30/11
110,000 Miles.
Lost 5 Capacity bars
7/18/13 (29,206), 8/25/14 (51,728), 7/12/15 (71.108), 5/12/16 (88,362), 10/17/16 (96,532)
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TomT
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:52 pm

Guys, the last dozen or so posts have nothing to do with the topic of this thread... Could we move those discussions somewhere else, please, and not pollute the original intent of this thread?

Thanks.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

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mwalsh
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:36 pm

Having a wonderful argument with Russ Finley of Energy Trends Insider about the LEAF capacity warranty. Fun times!

http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/2013 ... 1029014302
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 76,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
Bridgestone Ecopia 422+ tires.
L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
Superbright LED lighting.
2013 sun visors.
LED shifter.
Heated seats.
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AV L2 EVSE.

Weatherman
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:12 pm

I love this quote:

"Leaf drivers rarely notice the performance changes happening to keep the battery pack cool. I’ve never noticed my battery temperature gauge moving at all."


Well, no kidding! Especially when that sixth temperature bar can stay lit for temps anywhere from the mid 70s to near 100 degrees.

The rest of the commentary is just too ridiculous to even bother with.
2013 Crystal Red Volt
2012 SV Glacier Pearl LEAF; turned in 5/12/2015:18.6K Miles:50.13 AHr:10 bars, 24% gone

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surfingslovak
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:32 pm

Weatherman wrote:The rest of the commentary is just too ridiculous to even bother with.

Indeed. We had a similar discourse on Green Car Reports, which carried the story about the new "hot battery". I think his talents are wasted on this blog, Russ should consider writing science fiction instead.

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