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evnow
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Re: Worldwide LEAF sales compared with worldwide Prius sales

Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:27 am

donald wrote:If you didn't know beforehand something extra was happening under the bonnet, what would be the difference for driver?

So it seems to me that Prius sold on the basis of a gimmick. Whether the early models truly achieved a fuel saving still seems dubious to me, but it appears to have defeated the fuel consumption tests of the day.

Prius was expensive compared to a similar sized Corolla. So, someone wouldn't buy it - unless they were interested in the tech or the fuel consumption. That is how it is similar to an EV.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to ?

donald
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Re: Worldwide LEAF sales compared with worldwide Prius sales

Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:00 am

evnow wrote:
donald wrote:If you didn't know beforehand something extra was happening under the bonnet, what would be the difference for driver?

So it seems to me that Prius sold on the basis of a gimmick. Whether the early models truly achieved a fuel saving still seems dubious to me, but it appears to have defeated the fuel consumption tests of the day.

Prius was expensive compared to a similar sized Corolla. So, someone wouldn't buy it - unless they were interested in the tech or the fuel consumption. That is how it is similar to an EV.
Exactly. Just like buying an early EFI car.

I have driven Prius' ... and they seemed like ICE cars to me ..... what difference did I fail to spot between them and an ICE?

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Worldwide LEAF sales compared with worldwide Prius sales

Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:43 am

donald wrote:
evnow wrote:
donald wrote:If you didn't know beforehand something extra was happening under the bonnet, what would be the difference for driver?

So it seems to me that Prius sold on the basis of a gimmick. Whether the early models truly achieved a fuel saving still seems dubious to me, but it appears to have defeated the fuel consumption tests of the day.

Prius was expensive compared to a similar sized Corolla. So, someone wouldn't buy it - unless they were interested in the tech or the fuel consumption. That is how it is similar to an EV.
Exactly. Just like buying an early EFI car.

I have driven Prius' ... and they seemed like ICE cars to me ..... what difference did I fail to spot between them and an ICE?


your statement is like saying you drove a truck mounted camper and a Ferrrari down a straight stretch of freeway and did not notice a difference in cornering ability
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
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evnow
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Re: Worldwide LEAF sales compared with worldwide Prius sales

Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:54 am

donald wrote: ..... what difference did I fail to spot between them and an ICE?

The difference in breaking because of regen - and no engine noise when you start the car.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
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RegGuheert
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Re: Worldwide LEAF sales compared with worldwide Prius sales

Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:20 am

evnow wrote:
donald wrote: ..... what difference did I fail to spot between them and an ICE?

The difference in breaking because of regen - and no engine noise when you start the car.
Risk. Electric drive is something that people were unfamiliar with, so they considered it risky. It is to Toyota's great credit that they made this vehicle so extremely reliable.

Thirteen years later, Nissan is delivering an electric-drive which is approximately ten times as powerful and the reliability is still very high. The battery has been an issue, however.

It appears Toyota also had some reliability issues with the early batteries in the Prius, just as Nissan has had with the LEAF batteries. Toyota pushed through the problem and we now hear about Prii being driven hundreds of thousands of miles. (Honda never addressed the wearout of their hybrid batteries and today commands almost ZERO market share in electric drive.) To me, the big question is whether Nissan can effectively take the battery issue off the table, just as Toyota did with the Prius.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

donald
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Re: Worldwide LEAF sales compared with worldwide Prius sales

Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:32 am

evnow wrote:
donald wrote: ..... what difference did I fail to spot between them and an ICE?

The difference in breaking because of regen - and no engine noise when you start the car.

Generally, other cars I have been in tend to slow down when I go for the brake pedal. Prius slows down when I go for the brake pedal. Lexus LS400 slows down when I go for the brake pedal - and I couldn't hear that on start up either.

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TomT
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Re: Worldwide LEAF sales compared with worldwide Prius sales

Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:32 am

I think it would be fair to say that the Leaf has been reliable but because of the battery issue, it has not been durable.

RegGuheert wrote:Thirteen years later, Nissan is delivering an electric-drive which is approximately ten times as powerful and the reliability is still very high. The battery has been an issue, however.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
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Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier. Model 3 configured.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Worldwide LEAF sales compared with worldwide Prius sales

Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:48 am

TomT wrote:I think it would be fair to say that the Leaf has been reliable but because of the battery issue, it has not been durable.
What Tom said. And the same for the Honda and early Prius issues with the traction battery.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
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GetOffYourGas
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Re: Worldwide LEAF sales compared with worldwide Prius sales

Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:15 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Honda never addressed the wearout of their hybrid batteries and today commands almost ZERO market share in electric drive.


Is this true? They never addressed the wearout of the batteries? Anecdotally, I have a coworker whose Civic hybrid has had no real degradation in MPG in over 200,000 miles. He did get a warning from Honda that some cells have failed, but again - no noticeable hit to MPGs.

Anyway, I'm not convinced this is the reason that Honda has little market share. I think that has much to do with the fact that their "prius killer" gen II Insight was launched with the same drivetrain as the first gen. At the same time, Toyota was launching their Gen III prius, which was a much more refined machine. Shortly thereafter, they introduced the Prius C which pretty much killed the Insight's price advantage, while having even better MPG than a prius. Honda just don't have a competitive product today.

I drive one of those Gen II Insights, BTW, and love it. It handles like a Honda (responsive steering, tight suspension, hugs the road, focused on a "sporty" feel) and the Prius handles like a Toyota (sloppy steering, soft suspension, focused on a comfortable ride).
~Brian

EV Fleet:
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JeremyW
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Re: Worldwide LEAF sales compared with worldwide Prius sales

Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:08 pm

I'm diving right into the first gen Insight forum (insightcentral.net) because I recently purchased one as a long range car and it looks as though nearly every battery was replaced at least once. Most I think under warranty.
Former 2012 SL leasee 6/23/12 - 9/23/15
Now driving Honda Fit EV, License plate: CHADEMO
2000 Honda Insight for long trips

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