johnlocke
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:45 pm

SageBrush wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:Once upon a time I wanted (and pleaded with Nissan to make available) a 30-kWh replacement battery for our MY2011/2012 LEAFs. But based on the data I have seen, I have to say that we are probably better off with a 24 kWh replacement (assuming they still use the old chemistry). It appears that the capacity of a 30-kWh battery will start out higher but will drop below that of a 24-kWh battery after a couple of years. The real benefit of the 30-kWh batteries appears to be the better capacity warranty.

The longer warranty is a clear benefit for sure, but regarding capacity we could say for sure if the 4 bar drop SoC or SOH threshold for the 30 kWh battery was known. Say the threshold is 65% for the 24 kWh battery and 60% for the 30 kWh variety, then replacements occur at ~ 15.6 kWh in the smaller battery and at 18 kWh in the larger ones. That is still quite a large difference percentage wise, and around 10 miles of range for most people.

So as a free replacement choice (hah!), it would be superior.

The situation where the larger pack sucks is new car owners who pay more for the larger battery to meet their use profile. Quickly dropping down to ~ 20 - 25 kWh where the car cannot meet the commute needs and yet not be in the battery replacement range is sure to bite some owners.

It certainly bites for me! I bought this car, I did not lease it. Now I'm down two bars with 30% of my range gone after two years. I waited for the 30 KWH battery to insure that I had enough range and passed up incredible deals on 24 KWH Leafs. Now I have a 24 KWH Leaf anyway. If I had gotten the 24 KWH car I'd probably be down one bar and still have as much capacity in it as my 30KWH has currently. I'd have saved $10K over the cost of the 2016 which would have paid for several replacement batteries.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

SageBrush
Posts: 1421
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:00 pm

johnlocke wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:Once upon a time I wanted (and pleaded with Nissan to make available) a 30-kWh replacement battery for our MY2011/2012 LEAFs. But based on the data I have seen, I have to say that we are probably better off with a 24 kWh replacement (assuming they still use the old chemistry). It appears that the capacity of a 30-kWh battery will start out higher but will drop below that of a 24-kWh battery after a couple of years. The real benefit of the 30-kWh batteries appears to be the better capacity warranty.

The longer warranty is a clear benefit for sure, but regarding capacity we could say for sure if the 4 bar drop SoC or SOH threshold for the 30 kWh battery was known. Say the threshold is 65% for the 24 kWh battery and 60% for the 30 kWh variety, then replacements occur at ~ 15.6 kWh in the smaller battery and at 18 kWh in the larger ones. That is still quite a large difference percentage wise, and around 10 miles of range for most people.

So as a free replacement choice (hah!), it would be superior.

The situation where the larger pack sucks is new car owners who pay more for the larger battery to meet their use profile. Quickly dropping down to ~ 20 - 25 kWh where the car cannot meet the commute needs and yet not be in the battery replacement range is sure to bite some owners.

It certainly bites for me! I bought this car, I did not lease it. Now I'm down two bars with 30% of my range gone after two years. I waited for the 30 KWH battery to insure that I had enough range and passed up incredible deals on 24 KWH Leafs. Now I have a 24 KWH Leaf anyway. If I had gotten the 24 KWH car I'd probably be down one bar and still have as much capacity in it as my 30KWH has currently. I'd have saved $10K over the cost of the 2016 which would have paid for several replacement batteries.

I know Nissan argues that degradation is not a manufacturing defect, but at some rate and beyond their argument is defective. I think capacity loss 4x expected can be reasonably viewed as a defect; and if it happens twice in a row the car should be treated as a lemon.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12225
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:22 pm

trangen1 wrote:Okay , as Promised, to the Cynics on this Forum.

here are the pics, I'm still waiting for the Invoice from the Dealer.

The Temp was 65F last night, and I noticed on the warmer days, while it's charging, I always use 240V, the dash will display more, like 117-118-119 in Eco mode, and Exactly 10 miles less for Drive mode for 107-108-109 respectively.

see attached dashboard pics.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/34737565@N04/?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/34737565@N04/?


LOL!! OMG!!!

I see 135-140 on my GOM at a full charge and this is on a year old worn out LEAF with over 26,000 miles on it!
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12225
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:26 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Once upon a time I wanted (and pleaded with Nissan to make available) a 30-kWh replacement battery for our MY2011/2012 LEAFs. But based on the data I have seen, I have to say that we are probably better off with a 24 kWh replacement (assuming they still use the old chemistry). It appears that the capacity of a 30-kWh battery will start out higher but will drop below that of a 24-kWh battery after a couple of years. The real benefit of the 30-kWh batteries appears to be the better capacity warranty.


except that it doesn't matter what battery you put in because the warranty is with the original purchase and pack. So be it 30 kwh or 40 kwh, your warranty is whatever of the 5 years or 60,000 miles you got left
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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RegGuheert
Posts: 5583
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:42 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:except that it doesn't matter what battery you put in because the warranty is with the original purchase and pack. So be it 30 kwh or 40 kwh, your warranty is whatever of the 5 years or 60,000 miles you got left
That's only true if the 30 kWh is replaced under my original warranty, which is long expired. But if you purchase a battery new from Nissan, then you get the warranty that comes with it. IIRC, Nissan provides a NEW 5-year, 60,000-mile warranty when you purchase the 24-kWh battery. When you purchase a new 30-kWh battery not under warranty, what warranty do they offer you?
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

lorenfb
Posts: 1389
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:56 am

RegGuheert wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:except that it doesn't matter what battery you put in because the warranty is with the original purchase and pack. So be it 30 kwh or 40 kwh, your warranty is whatever of the 5 years or 60,000 miles you got left
That's only true if the 30 kWh is replaced under my original warranty, which is long expired. But if you purchase a battery new from Nissan, then you get the warranty that comes with it. IIRC, Nissan provides a NEW 5-year, 60,000-mile warranty when you purchase the 24-kWh battery. When you purchase a new 30-kWh battery not under warranty, what warranty do they offer you?


Most likely it's the just the typical new parts warranty, i.e. one year. Without an explicit definition per replacement part, that part gets
the typical replacement warranty. So the invoice needs to explicitly define the warranty, which I doubt Nissan or any other OEM will
extend beyond one year. That applies to any replacement battery capacity one purchases out of warranty.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:45 am

lorenfb wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:except that it doesn't matter what battery you put in because the warranty is with the original purchase and pack. So be it 30 kwh or 40 kwh, your warranty is whatever of the 5 years or 60,000 miles you got left
That's only true if the 30 kWh is replaced under my original warranty, which is long expired. But if you purchase a battery new from Nissan, then you get the warranty that comes with it. IIRC, Nissan provides a NEW 5-year, 60,000-mile warranty when you purchase the 24-kWh battery. When you purchase a new 30-kWh battery not under warranty, what warranty do they offer you?
Most likely it's the just the typical new parts warranty, i.e. one year. Without an explicit definition per replacement part, that part gets the typical replacement warranty. So the invoice needs to explicitly define the warranty, which I doubt Nissan or any other OEM will extend beyond one year. That applies to any replacement battery capacity one purchases out of warranty.
So you're saying that while Nissan provides a 5-year, 60,000-mile warranty on the purchase of a new 24-kWh battery pack, they will only provide a one-year parts warranty on the 30-kWh battery pack? That makes no sense to me.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

lorenfb
Posts: 1389
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:02 am

RegGuheert wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:That's only true if the 30 kWh is replaced under my original warranty, which is long expired. But if you purchase a battery new from Nissan, then you get the warranty that comes with it. IIRC, Nissan provides a NEW 5-year, 60,000-mile warranty when you purchase the 24-kWh battery. When you purchase a new 30-kWh battery not under warranty, what warranty do they offer you?
Most likely it's the just the typical new parts warranty, i.e. one year. Without an explicit definition per replacement part, that part gets the typical replacement warranty. So the invoice needs to explicitly define the warranty, which I doubt Nissan or any other OEM will extend beyond one year. That applies to any replacement battery capacity one purchases out of warranty.
So you're saying that while Nissan provides a 5-year, 60,000-mile warranty on the purchase of a new 24-kWh battery pack, they will only provide a one-year parts warranty on the 30-kWh battery pack? That makes no sense to me.


No. Most OEMs don't provide an ongoing warranty once they've complied with the original new car warranty. Obviously, each OEM can
differ with this, but it would be very costly in the long run. So to clarify my statement; If Nissan sells an out-right purchase of a replacement
battery (either 24 or 30kWh) they will provide the same warranty whether it's just one year (like any replacement part) or a "like new vehicle"
warranty of 5 years & 60K miles (unlikely). Obviously, if the battery fails again within the same original 60K period, it's a no cost replacement.
Typically OEMs don't provide open-ended warranties. Nissan could reasonably state that a 30kWh battery would not be considered
as the normal replacement part but an optional type of replacement part and only warranty it for one year. I doubt that there's any specific
law or guidelines relating to that issue and the OEM is not obligated to any specific warranty. The same issue can be rationalized when
an ICE is warranty replaced in an ICEV, i.e. the same logic could apply for a battery.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:33 am

lorenfb wrote:No. Most OEMs don't provide an ongoing warranty once they've complied with the original new car warranty. Obviously, each OEM can differ with this, but it would be very costly in the long run. So to clarify my statement; If Nissan sells an out-right purchase of a replacement battery (either 24 or 30kWh) they will provide the same warranty whether it's just one year (like any replacement part) or a "like new vehicle" warranty of 5 years & 60K miles (unlikely). Obviously, if the battery fails again within the same original 60K period, it's a no cost replacement. Typically OEMs don't provide open-ended warranties. Nissan could reasonably state that a 30kWh battery would not be considered as the normal replacement part but an optional type of replacement part and only warranty it for one year. I doubt that there's any specific law or guidelines relating to that issue and the OEM is not obligated to any specific warranty. The same issue can be rationalized when an ICE is warranty replaced in an ICEV, i.e. the same logic could apply for a battery.
It sounds like you are just making stuff up as regards to the Nissan LEAF. I'm specifically talking about the "Nissan LEAF Li-Ion Battery Assurance Limited Warranty" that Nissan provides to owners when they purchase a new Li-ion battery. For the 24-kWh batteries, that warranty is for 8 years and 100,000 miles for materials and workmanship and for 5 years and 60,000 miles for gradual capacity loss.

The question is how long the warrant period is for gradual capacity loss on the 30-kWh battery. Random speculation is not really useful here.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12225
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:36 am

RegGuheert wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:except that it doesn't matter what battery you put in because the warranty is with the original purchase and pack. So be it 30 kwh or 40 kwh, your warranty is whatever of the 5 years or 60,000 miles you got left
That's only true if the 30 kWh is replaced under my original warranty, which is long expired. But if you purchase a battery new from Nissan, then you get the warranty that comes with it. IIRC, Nissan provides a NEW 5-year, 60,000-mile warranty when you purchase the 24-kWh battery. When you purchase a new 30-kWh battery not under warranty, what warranty do they offer you?



ok, my bad. I thought this "under warranty" discussion.

the 30 kwh is 100,000 miles or 8 years
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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