Valdemar
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:14 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Valdemar wrote:
Highly suspicious as this is the price people paid for a 24kWh replacement pack. Considering the 30kWh S model is more expensive than its 24kWh predecessor the cost for a 30kWh pack installed should be in the 7-8k range.


I agree that the dealer is probably wrong AND the "retail value" of the 30 kwh pack is higher but I DOUBT the 30 kwh pack is more expensive for Nissan to build. In fact, pretty sure it is not even close


It has been speculated that Nissan gives out packs with little or no profit margin, but yes I agree that the manufacturing cost differential between 24/30kWh should be minimal.
'11 SL, totaled
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JPWhite
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:17 am

Valdemar wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Valdemar wrote:
Highly suspicious as this is the price people paid for a 24kWh replacement pack. Considering the 30kWh S model is more expensive than its 24kWh predecessor the cost for a 30kWh pack installed should be in the 7-8k range.


I agree that the dealer is probably wrong AND the "retail value" of the 30 kwh pack is higher but I DOUBT the 30 kwh pack is more expensive for Nissan to build. In fact, pretty sure it is not even close


It has been speculated that Nissan gives out packs with little or no profit margin, but yes I agree that the manufacturing cost differential between 24/30kWh should be minimal.


If we assume $200/kWh (I doubt Nissan have attained that yet), that's a delta of $1,200. Not exactly insignificant.

If I remember right the price of SV/SL's went up a few grand with the intro of the 30 kWh pack.

The OP's estimate of $7-8,000 retail sounds very plausible.
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Blue SL-e, Res 4/22/10, Ord 3/29/11, Del 7/30/11
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Lost 5 Capacity bars
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New Battery 12/3/16 (98,956)

Valdemar
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:50 am

JPWhite wrote:
If we assume $200/kWh (I doubt Nissan have attained that yet), that's a delta of $1,200. Not exactly insignificant.

If I remember right the price of SV/SL's went up a few grand with the intro of the 30 kWh pack.

The OP's estimate of $7-8,000 retail sounds very plausible.


I agree but retail price differential isn't necessarily a good indicator of manufacturing costs. Quite likely Nissan just wanted to charge premium for longer range without much underlying manufacturing cost increase.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
60.5AHr, SOH 94%, 105k miles
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JPWhite
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:28 pm

Valdemar wrote:
JPWhite wrote:
If we assume $200/kWh (I doubt Nissan have attained that yet), that's a delta of $1,200. Not exactly insignificant.

If I remember right the price of SV/SL's went up a few grand with the intro of the 30 kWh pack.

The OP's estimate of $7-8,000 retail sounds very plausible.


I agree but retail price differential isn't necessarily a good indicator of manufacturing costs. Quite likely Nissan just wanted to charge premium for longer range without much underlying manufacturing cost increase.


My assumption is that the manufacturing cost delta is at least $1,200.

24kWH battery costs $6,000 fitted.
Add $1200 for manufacturing cost increase.
There's $7,200 right there.
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Blue SL-e, Res 4/22/10, Ord 3/29/11, Del 7/30/11
109,000 Miles.
Lost 5 Capacity bars
7/18/13 (29,206), 8/25/14 (51,728), 7/12/15 (71.108), 5/12/16 (88,362), 10/17/16 (96,532)
New Battery 12/3/16 (98,956)

edatoakrun
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:30 am

On-topic reply below to comment from another thread:

LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=17820&start=520


Stoaty wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:A few more significant quotes from the article I linked yesterday:

And he confirmed that the next Leaf would continue with an air-cooled battery pack, saying changes in cell chemistry had "significantly reduced" concerns over battery durability.

"I am not concerned any more" about the durability of electric-car batteries, he concluded...


Well, those of us who have a capacity loss of 30% in 5.5 years on our Nissan Leaf are concerned. I will wait to see what the battery capacity warranty is on Leaf 2. Any such statement is meaningless without a warranty to back it up.

Lifetime 5.5 m/kWh (Dash) over 57,200 miles / 67 months
Capacity Loss Predicted - 27.4% Actual - 30.1%
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet


I doubt Nissan is very concerned about losing future sale to those few 2011 to (early) 2013 LEAF owners who still confuse inaccurate LBC-indicated battery capacity loss (gid and capacity bar loss) with actual battery capacity loss.

Nissan knows that the change(s) it made in the gid and capacity bar display of new LEAFs in 2013 will mean it will have far fewer complaints of capacity lossfrom the those who rely on gids/bars and never monitor their actual capacity loss, whether actual LEAF battery durability has been improved significantly since 2011, or not.

After I had my 3G TCU upgrade done, I had a long discussion with my local Nissan service adviser RE my own pack, which at almost 50 k miles and nearly 6 years from manufacture now shows LBC calculated capacity loss of ~31%, and is approaching 20% actual capacity loss, as estimated by the charge accepted, as reported by my utility meter.

From his comments, and the reports of others on this forum, it appears Nissan has adopted a policy of providing something like a de-facto prorated pack warranty for some early LEAF owners, which, IMO, while not defective in terms of capacity loss, were probably defective from the standpoint of initial capacity on delivery.

At this point, my advice to all LEAF owners interested in trying to get assistance from Nissan in replacing their packs after warranty expiration, would be to make no efforts to intentionally damage your pack, and maintain a cooperative relationship with your servicing Nissan dealer.

Nissan might well prefer that problem customers who will not do this would buy their future BEVs from their competitors.

If and when I decide to replace my own pack, I will report on how this situation is resolved.
no condition is permanent

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:37 am

JPWhite wrote:
Valdemar wrote:
JPWhite wrote:
If we assume $200/kWh (I doubt Nissan have attained that yet), that's a delta of $1,200. Not exactly insignificant.

If I remember right the price of SV/SL's went up a few grand with the intro of the 30 kWh pack.

The OP's estimate of $7-8,000 retail sounds very plausible.


I agree but retail price differential isn't necessarily a good indicator of manufacturing costs. Quite likely Nissan just wanted to charge premium for longer range without much underlying manufacturing cost increase.


My assumption is that the manufacturing cost delta is at least $1,200.

24kWH battery costs $6,000 fitted.
Add $1200 for manufacturing cost increase.
There's $7,200 right there.


still betting the 30 kwh pack is cheaper than the 24 kwh pack but then again there is only one rule of retail and that is "what is the most people will pay?" :)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 18,297 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 100.00% kwh 28.1 QCs 165, L2's 190
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drees
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:17 pm

edatoakrun wrote:On-topic reply below to comment from another thread:

Not really, but whatever.
edatoakrun wrote:I doubt Nissan is very concerned about losing future sale to those few 2011 to (early) 2013 LEAF owners who still confuse inaccurate LBC-indicated battery capacity loss (gid and capacity bar loss) with actual battery capacity loss.

I don't know why you keep pushing this and disparaging other LEAF owners.

My 4 bar loser after 5.5 years can do 50 miles at 4.5 mi/kWh to VLBW. When new, it did 75.

Charging the car from turtle to 100% uses 17kWh from the wall. When new it took 25kWh.

The numbers match up. Perfectly? Not quite, but then we all know that estimating battery capacity without doing a full discharge/charge is a bit of an art.

While I'm certain that newer LEAFs have more durable batteries, the question is how much better.

I know that with the lack of cooling, there is definitely uneven capacity loss in my pack. Cells 10-38 have noticably lower voltages by the time LBW is close.
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RegGuheert
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:44 pm

edatoakrun wrote:...my own pack, which at almost 50 k miles and nearly 6 years from manufacture now shows LBC calculated capacity loss of ~31%, and is approaching 20% actual capacity loss, as estimated by the charge accepted, as reported by my utility meter.
Our pack has a bit over 5.5 years and nearly 40,000 miles since manufacture. LeafSpy indicates 25% capacity loss. In the summertime I can often get more than 75% of the original summertime range, but in the wintertime I do not think I can come close to 75% the original wintertime range.

Simply put, the wintertime range was an issue when the car was new, but it is the real issue we face in this climate as it ages. The ridiculous climate controls make matters in wintertime much worse than they need to be.
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JPWhite
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:58 pm

edatoakrun wrote:I doubt Nissan is very concerned about losing future sale to those few 2011 to (early) 2013 LEAF owners who still confuse inaccurate LBC-indicated battery capacity loss (gid and capacity bar loss) with actual battery capacity loss.


If your assertion is correct regarding Nissan not being concerned about losing early adopters, then more fool them.

The absolute number of customers, approx 20,000 isn't that significant in as much as losing 20,000 customers is not the end of the world for Nissan. However these 20,000 customers tend to be outspoken about their LEAF's (and other EV's) and maintain blogs and engage in social media. The impact of these owners have a significant impact on the next wave of customers, who will research EV's online and come across blogs and dialog about the LEAF. The potential purchaser will ask for input from anyone they know who has previously owned an EV to get real world experience and advice.

I enjoy the oft acerbic commentary from Jack Rickard. During the early days of the LEAF battery durability concerns Jack simply could not believe Nissan's take it or leave it approach to the issue. The quote that sticks out in my mind is that given that there were so few LEAF owners Nissan should be "tucking them into bed at night" rather than ignoring them. A little TLC back then would have gone a long way to avert brand damage. Rickard referred to Nissan's approach as 'corporate Harikiri'. I couldn't agree with him more.

IMHO The LEAF brand is tarnished in the US and Nissan should launch their next EV with a new name.
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JP White
http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com
Blue SL-e, Res 4/22/10, Ord 3/29/11, Del 7/30/11
109,000 Miles.
Lost 5 Capacity bars
7/18/13 (29,206), 8/25/14 (51,728), 7/12/15 (71.108), 5/12/16 (88,362), 10/17/16 (96,532)
New Battery 12/3/16 (98,956)

SageBrush
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:22 pm

JPWhite wrote:IMHO The LEAF brand is tarnished in the US and Nissan should launch their next EV with a new name.

I cannot imagine anybody disputing this who is thinking of spending their own money. A new technology is likely needed too. And a much more persuasive warranty.

I read this forum by searching for new posts and new threads. The last (and I think only) time I read of an owner with a new car was DaveInOly. All the other LEAF purchase threads have been about used cars. I'm not denigrating used LEAF buyers (after all, I am one of them,) but without people willing to buy new cars this model is dying and no replacement is on the horizon.

Does Nissan care ? By their actions, I think not.
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