LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:05 pm

Hyundai and Kia can't keep their EV's in stock.


Definitely not true. I could have leased a Kia Soul last December for less than $200 a month, because they were finding them hard to unload. And some of your other complaints are about actions taken because of low public interest in the Leaf in many markets - like mine.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 9175
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:05 am

johnlocke wrote:Doesn't really matter if the Leaf is a "compliance" car or not. Or if It is sold around the world. The purpose of selling Leafs in the US is to raise the CAFE mileage average so Nissan can sell more expensive SUV's and big pickup trucks with bad gas mileage and much higher profit margins.

I wish I had the chart or sales numbers showing that Leafs sales outside the US outnumber US Leaf sales.

As for your CAFE assertion, I don't think that true.

CAFE has changed over the years and has gotten more complicated with "footprint" being taken into account, but in the past, there were always 3 separate fleets: DP (domestic passenger cars), IP (imported PC) and LT (light trucks). Leaf is counted as a DP now whereas it was IP for MY2011 and 20112. Leaf is definitely NOT classified as LT. Minivans, SUVs, crossovers, and even some passenger car looking vehicles (e.g. most Subarus except the BR-Z; Chrysler PT Cruiser) are classified as "light trucks".

Unless you can point to me something that says you can now use IP or DP results to help LT or that they're only enforcing a combination for an automaker rather than looking at each fleet separately, then your assertion's wrong.

From https://one.nhtsa.gov/cafe_pic/cafe_pic_home.htm, you can look at https://one.nhtsa.gov/cafe_pic/CAFE_PIC_Mfr_LIVE.html and still see 3 separate fleets.

However, a purpose in selling EVs in CA and CARB emission states is the CARB ZEV program. See http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=379 for pointers along with https://web.archive.org/web/20130821091 ... icles.html. You can see balances at https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/z ... redits.htm and https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/z ... redits.pdf along with some of the transfers.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

fotajoye
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:18 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 669
Location: Northern California

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:57 pm

johnlocke wrote:Doesn't really matter if the Leaf is a "compliance" car or not. Or if It is sold around the world. The purpose of selling Leafs in the US is to raise the CAFE mileage average so Nissan can sell more expensive SUV's and big pickup trucks with bad gas mileage and much higher profit margins. If Nissan were truly interested in the EV market, they would have spent the time and money to correct the battery issues and made battery upgrades possible. The Leaf has a poor reputation and little resale value because Nissan DOESN'T CARE. They sell Leafs in spite of poor salesmanship and lackluster marketing. Dealers typically have minimal trained staff available and some dealers actually share Leaf trained techs between several stores. Nissan's failure to deliver the 60KWH version so far is just more evidence that EV's are not a market they care about.

That Nissan sells as many Leafs as it does only shows how much pent up demand there is for any EV. Tesla has six months of backorders to fill for a car most haven't even driven. Hyundai and Kia can't keep their EV's in stock. Jaguar has already sold out their next years production of the I-Pace from what I understand. If the Chinese decide to export their EV's, then Nissan is in a world of hurt.


What buzzes through the complaints about Nissan is how little regard they have for their EV customers, maybe any customer.

I think their management is way behind the curve in creating EV policy. They are still thinking ICEVs and defining EV policies that don't fit. Their most blatant policy mistakes are in the area of traction batteries...for example; they quoted a price of about $6,500 for replacing batteries; but, now raise the price to $9,000, plus for a substandard 80 mile battery.. In effect they are relegating their generation one cars to the scrap pile and forcing their customers to take the lose. They had 8 years to improve the range and performance of their batteries...not a peep about batteries until they announce they sold their battery business and will offer an improved battery in the 2019 MY...from a third party. How many customers like getting kicked in the behind and will buy Nissan again...not many! Not me!

joeriv
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: Fairfield County CT

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:49 pm

From Wikipedia:

“Global sales totaled 370,000 Leafs by the end of October 2018, making the Leaf the world's all-time best-selling highway-capable electric car.[6] The United States is the world's largest Nissan Leaf market, with 126,747 sold through October 2018; followed by Japan with 100,000 units by April 2018; and Europe with 100,000 by June 2018. The European market was led by Norway with 33,156 new units registered by the end of October 2018. The Nissan Leaf was the world's best-selling plug-in electric car in 2013 and 2014.”
2017 Leaf S with QC, JUN mfg date

cwerdna
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:47 pm

fotajoye wrote:I think their management is way behind the curve in creating EV policy. They are still thinking ICEVs and defining EV policies that don't fit. Their most blatant policy mistakes are in the area of traction batteries...for example; they quoted a price of about $6,500 for replacing batteries; but, now raise the price to $9,000, plus for a substandard 80 mile battery.. In effect they are relegating their generation one cars to the scrap pile and forcing their customers to take the lose. They had 8 years to improve the range and performance of their batteries...not a peep about batteries until they announce they sold their battery business and will offer an improved battery in the 2019 MY...from a third party.

I generally agree on many of your points, but your numbers are off. Original replacement price was $5,499 (see OP) + labor and tax.

It seems it has risen unfortunately to the low $7000s for the part only from a reputable tech in the Pacific NW. Yes, it does suck that the only option is to buy another 24 kWh battery and not a 30 or 40 kWh pack. So, yeah people with degraded old Leafs that are worth under $5K probably aren't too keen on spending over $7K to replace the battery when virtually everything on the car is out of warranty.

As for the last part... they have. The 4/2013 thru model year '14 batteries seem more heat resistant. The model year '15 lizard pack seems best, so far. 30 kWh cars came out with 107 mile EPA range rating. 40 kWh cars have been out for a little while with 151 mile EPA range rating. Original '11 and '12 Leaf were only rated at 73 miles.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 3875
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Location: Colorado

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:12 pm

joeriv wrote:From Wikipedia:

Let me trend that data for you:

Image

Kapisch ? The EV world is exploding ... except for Nissan, which is contracting.
No ? ok, then let me phrase it this way: Tesla will likely exceed 40k EV sales a month sometime in 2019 while Nissan is struggling to keep up that volume per year.
Still in denial ?

Here is Tesla through 9/31/2018:

Image

Nissan's last hurrah was only kinda sort of true in November because Tesla reports sales every quarter. For months now Tesla has been watching Nissan disappear in the rear view mirror.
Last edited by SageBrush on Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

fotajoye
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:18 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 669
Location: Northern California

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:14 am

cwerdna wrote:I generally agree on many of your points, but your numbers are off. Original replacement price was $5,499 (see OP) + labor and tax.

It seems it has risen unfortunately to the low $7000s for the part only from a reputable tech in the Pacific NW. Yes, it does suck that the only option is to buy another 24 kWh battery and not a 30 or 40 kWh pack. So, yeah people with degraded old Leafs that are worth under $5K probably aren't too keen on spending over $7K to replace the battery when virtually everything on the car is out of warranty.

As for the last part... they have. The 4/2013 thru model year '14 batteries seem more heat resistant. The model year '15 lizard pack seems best, so far. 30 kWh cars came out with 107 mile EPA range rating. 40 kWh cars have been out for a little while with 151 mile EPA range rating. Original '11 and '12 Leaf were only rated at 73 miles.


Nope, You are low-balling the numbers; mine are actually even low when you add in the kit for a 2011 MY, outrageous shop rates and taxes and realize that's a trade in price for the old unit which some intend to keep,

I actually like the car other than the low range battery; but, I can't tolerate Nissan's poor EV customer policies

Valdemar
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Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:42 am

Did anyone confirm if the more expensive battery is the same part# as earlier? Can the price increase be related to them now using 30kW packs with a usable capacity limiter?
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

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cwerdna
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:03 am

fotajoye wrote:
cwerdna wrote:I generally agree on many of your points, but your numbers are off. Original replacement price was $5,499 (see OP) + labor and tax.

It seems it has risen unfortunately to the low $7000s for the part only from a reputable tech in the Pacific NW. Yes, it does suck that the only option is to buy another 24 kWh battery and not a 30 or 40 kWh pack. So, yeah people with degraded old Leafs that are worth under $5K probably aren't too keen on spending over $7K to replace the battery when virtually everything on the car is out of warranty.


Nope, You are low-balling the numbers; mine are actually even low when you add in the kit for a 2011 MY, outrageous shop rates and taxes and realize that's a trade in price for the old unit which some intend to keep,

Yes, I realize Nissan's pricing (originally $5499 not including '11 and '12 kit, tax and labor) assumes and already includes turning in your old battery.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattle ... 4701021289 says $8500 total.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattle ... 5640997195 is the well-known Leaf tech saying in the end $7K to $7.5K.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 2016
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:37 am

cwerdna wrote:As for the last part... they have. The 4/2013 thru model year '14 batteries seem more heat resistant. The model year '15 lizard pack seems best, so far. 30 kWh cars came out with 107 mile EPA range rating. 40 kWh cars have been out for a little while with 151 mile EPA range rating. Original '11 and '12 Leaf were only rated at 73 miles.


In other words, Nissan dramatically underestimated the need for thermal management. They thought they could skate by without it, but they were wrong. So instead of improving capacity (and therefore range), they had to focus their energies on improving durability (heat tolerance). That put them behind the curve and now everyone else is leap-frogging them.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

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