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TomT
Posts: 10555
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360
Location: Foothills of Granada Hills, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:45 pm

+1! Volt battery failures are all but unheard of...

Plus, if you want to be technical; about it, the Leaf motor does not directly drive the wheels as pictured...

rmay635703 wrote:The 24kw battery (oddly)
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier. Model 3 reserved.

lorenfb
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:49 pm

rmay635703 wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
orioniggies wrote:Yes sure it's partly the price but what stopped me cold on the volt was unreliability their electric information system (computer ) causing problems, and the dealers are not competent enough to get them back on the road in a timely fashion. Leaf has a much better reliability rating.


What overall system design has a higher probability of failure?

Image

Image


The 24kw battery (oddly)


Actually, what occurs with the Leaf's battery and with ALL BEV batteries is a degradation in its output energy over time,
with the early (2011/12) Leaf batteries having greater degradation and not a catastrophic failure. The Volt's system
has a higher probability of a failure requiring a tow or a greater service frequency, given the number of system elements
and the inclusion of an ICE. Since the Volt is a hybrid, it's reliability should be on par with most all hybrids, which
would have a higher probability of a failure than a less complex ICEV.

rmay635703
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:31 am

Since the Volt is a hybrid, it's reliability should be on par with most all hybrids, which
would have a higher probability of a failure than a less complex ICEV.


https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579

Nuff said

lorenfb
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:34 pm

O.K., and now for the reality of driving a Volt hybrid:

Periodic:

Spark Plugs - 50K, Oil Change - 10K , Air Filler - 25K, Trans Service - 25K
O2 Sensors - 100K, Emission Tests - bi-annual, Coolant Changes - 50K, Belts - 50K

Random:

Water Pump, Valve Cover Gasket , Oil Pan Gasket, Secondary Air Pump (emissions),
Trans Valve Body Gasket, Radiator, CAT converter, Muffler, Vacuum Hoses, Trans Clutches
Misc. ICE Oil Leaks (e.g. front/rear crank seals, timing cover), fuel injectors, COP (coil-on-plug) ignitors

And the associated labor costs, usually 1 - 1.5X the parts costs. As significant for many, the allotted time
for dealer scheduling/appointments

rmay635703
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:54 pm

lorenfb wrote:O.K., and now for the reality of driving a Volt hybrid:

Periodic:

Spark Plugs - 50K, Oil Change - 10K , Air Filler - 25K, Trans Service - 25K
O2 Sensors - 100K, Emission Tests - bi-annual, Coolant Changes - 50K, Belts - 50K

Random:

Water Pump, Valve Cover Gasket , Oil Pan Gasket, Secondary Air Pump (emissions),
Trans Valve Body Gasket, Radiator, CAT converter, Muffler, Vacuum Hoses, Trans Clutches
Misc. ICE Oil Leaks (e.g. front/rear crank seals, timing cover), fuel injectors, COP (coil-on-plug) ignitors

And the associated labor costs, usually 1 - 1.5X the parts costs. As significant for many, the allotted time
for dealer scheduling/appointments


Right and I bet your the guy that pays for the annual oil change and battery test on your leaf.

Reality is plugs by the book at 100k, sparkie got plugs at 300k

Belts, Volt has no belts

Transmission? Nope, fluid goes past 150k in the planetary

Radiator fluids 150k by the book

By the book my volt is on its 2nd oil change at 40,000 miles and still a year to go.

Emission checks, none here but a 100 miles south emissions checks start at year 6. (Our state has the bone headed belief they can emissions check a pure EV as well so no joy either way)

So yes the Volt could require maintenance but generally beyond biannual filters and oil changes most Volt drivers encounter zilch until after 200k

Those that do complain on gen 1 are usually having a sticking charge door, trouble connecting infotainment or tire blow outs.

GRA
Posts: 7234
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:28 pm

March's U.S. sales total for sub-$40k MSRP PEVs:

BEV, 3,750, 37.5% (9 types: LEAF; 500e; e-Golf; Spark EV; Soul EV; Focus Electric; Smart ED; Bolt; iMiev).
PHEV, 6,193, 62.5% (7 types: Volt; Fusion Energi; C-Max Energi; A3 E-tron; Sonata PHEV; Prius Prime; Optima PHV)
Total 9,943.

2% increase/decrease for BEVs/PHEVs compared to last month. Seems to be mainly due to booming LEAF sales (1,418) and the surprise of the month, the updated FFE with 407, its all-time high by well over 100. This is probably due to the backlog of people waiting for the bigger battery and CCS, which arrived last month. We'll see if the FFE can sustain sales at this level. Volt and Prius Prime remain #1 & #2 in sub-$40k PEV sales. Meanwhile the Spark and iMiEV eked out 3 sales each.

When describing sub-$40k PEVs as 'affordable', I've always put that in single quotes. However, there are now a fair number of PEVs available for base MSRPs below $30k with more to come, which I consider affordable without the single quotes, so I'm going to list them separately as well. Without further ado:

March's U.S. sales total for sub-$30k MSRP PEVs:

BEV, 755, 24.9% (4 types: Focus Electric; eGolf; Smart ED; iMiEV)
PHEV, 2,280, 75.1% (2 types: Prius Prime; C-Max Energi)
Total, 3,035

The Ionic BEV's due to arrive in April and will join this group, not sure about when the PHEV arrives or whether its price will be low enough to qualify.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7234
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

Tue May 09, 2017 4:47 pm

April's U.S. sales total for semi-affordable sub-$40k MSRP PEVs:

BEV, 3,415, 36.5% (10 types: LEAF; 500e; e-Golf; Spark EV; Soul EV; Focus Electric; Smart ED; Bolt; iMiev; Ionic BEV [debuts with 19]).
PHEV, 5,947, 63.5% (7 types: Volt; Fusion Energi; C-Max Energi; A3 E-tron; Sonata PHEV; Prius Prime; Optima PHV)
Total 9,362.

1% decrease/increase for BEVs/PHEVs compared to last month. Prius Prime just beats out the Volt for the first time, 1,819 vs. 1,807. Focus EV drops back to more typical level, 120. The Spark and iMiev contributed 1 and 2 sales each.

When describing sub-$40k PEVs as 'affordable', I've always put that in single quotes. However, there are now a fair number of PEVs available for base MSRPs below $30k with more to come, which I consider affordable without the single quotes, so I'm going to list them separately as well. Without further ado:

April's U.S. sales total for affordable, sub-$30k MSRP PEVs:

BEV, 452, 15.0% (6 types: Focus Electric; eGolf; Smart ED; iMiev; Spark EV*; Ioniq BEV)
PHEV, 2,568, 85.0% (2 types: Prius Prime; C-Max Energi)
Total, 3,020

9.9% decrease/increase from last month for BEV/PHEVs respectively. Prime's #1 by a mile, the C-Max #2 with 749. e-Golf is the #1 BEV with 307, the FFE #2 with 120 and the Ionic #3 with 19, then the Smart/iMiEV/Spark @ 3/2/1.

[Edit: corrected math to reflect correct <$30k decrease/increase %]
Last edited by GRA on Tue May 09, 2017 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

tattoogunman
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:17 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2016
Location: Plano, Texas

Re: Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

Tue May 09, 2017 5:12 pm

GRA wrote:April's U.S. sales total for semi-affordable sub-$40k MSRP PEVs:

BEV, 3,415, 36.5% (10 types: LEAF; 500e; e-Golf; Spark EV; Soul EV; Focus Electric; Smart ED; Bolt; iMiev; Ionic BEV [debuts with 19]).
PHEV, 5,947, 63.5% (7 types: Volt; Fusion Energi; C-Max Energi; A3 E-tron; Sonata PHEV; Prius Prime; Optima PHV)
Total 9,362.

1% decrease/increase for BEVs/PHEVs compared to last month. Prius Prime just beats out the Volt for the first time, 1,819 vs. 1,807. Focus EV drops back to more typical level, 120. The Spark and iMiev contributed 1 and 2 sales each.

When describing sub-$40k PEVs as 'affordable', I've always put that in single quotes. However, there are now a fair number of PEVs available for base MSRPs below $30k with more to come, which I consider affordable without the single quotes, so I'm going to list them separately as well. Without further ado:

April's U.S. sales total for affordable, sub-$30k MSRP PEVs:

BEV, 452, 15.0% (6 types: Focus Electric; eGolf; Smart ED; iMiev; Spark EV*; Ioniq BEV)
PHEV, 2,568, 85.0% (2 types: Prius Prime; C-Max Energi)
Total, 3,020

10.1% decrease/increase from last month for BEV/PHEVs respectively. Prime's #1 by a mile, the C-Max #2 with 749. e-Golf is the #1 BEV with 307, the FFE #2 with 120 and the Ionic #3 with 19, then the Smart/iMiEV/Spark @ 3/2/1.


And I, for one, appreciate the single quotes on 'affordable'. A high $30K to low $40K car is not 'affordable' in my world and it's the reason why I have been shying away from these cars (among other reasons). My intention is to try the EV world for my next vehicle, but the costs are keeping me away unless I buy used. I have been shying away from used, unless there is a remaining warranty, because of the noted problems on the Leaf and the likely high costs of repairs/replacement on other EV cars or the Volt. I've driven the Volt and the Leaf and found the Volt to be a much nicer car. However, I sort of figure if I am going to do it, I may as well go 100% electric. The Leaf really did not push my buttons in the least and did not feel or look like a mid $30K car, but the 2018 may be promising as is the new Bolt. However, given the prices of both vehicles, it is keeping me out of the market (I'm a born again college student in my 40's with little money). I figure by time I graduate and with my credit score getting better by the month, I may be in a position to try a lease on one of these cars within the next year or so, assuming I am able to find a real job relatively quickly. If I cannot find a lease for $275 or less a month, no way could I touch any of these cars. I know I've seen some lease deals advertised less than that, so we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

GRA
Posts: 7234
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

Tue May 09, 2017 5:19 pm

tattoogunman wrote:
GRA wrote:When describing sub-$40k PEVs as 'affordable', I've always put that in single quotes. However, there are now a fair number of PEVs available for base MSRPs below $30k with more to come, which I consider affordable without the single quotes, so I'm going to list them separately as well. Without further ado: <snip>

And I, for one, appreciate the single quotes on 'affordable'. A high $30K to low $40K car is not 'affordable' in my world and it's the reason why I have been shying away from these cars (among other reasons). My intention is to try the EV world for my next vehicle, but the costs are keeping me away unless I buy used. I have been shying away from used, unless there is a remaining warranty, because of the noted problems on the Leaf and the likely high costs of repairs/replacement on other EV cars or the Volt. I've driven the Volt and the Leaf and found the Volt to be a much nicer car. However, I sort of figure if I am going to do it, I may as well go 100% electric. The Leaf really did not push my buttons in the least and did not feel or look like a mid $30K car, but the 2018 may be promising as is the new Bolt. However, given the prices of both vehicles, it is keeping me out of the market (I'm a born again college student in my 40's with little money). I figure by time I graduate and with my credit score getting better by the month, I may be in a position to try a lease on one of these cars within the next year or so, assuming I am able to find a real job relatively quickly. If I cannot find a lease for $275 or less a month, no way could I touch any of these cars. I know I've seen some lease deals advertised less than that, so we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Glad you find it useful. Many of the early adopters are in a very different income demographic than the average person, so I do think it sometimes skews their perception of whether or not a PEV makes sense for someone else, as well as their mass market appeal.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 5503
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

Wed May 10, 2017 5:57 am

I find it "funny" that you trot out a "sub-$30K" category now that you can show PHEVs winning in that price range. You made no mention of that category for the past few years when it was dominated by BEVs.

But that's par for the course for someone who comes to a BEV forum daily to bash BEVs and promote all more-polluting alternatives.

Meanwhile, in the US as well as worldwide, BEVs are outselling PHEVs.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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