Faster L2 charging should be standard

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GetOffYourGas

Well-known member
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TomT said:
I wonder if 2016 will see the continuation of the 6.0 Kw charger or will it become a real 6.6 Kw charger...

nerys said:
30kw with 6.6kwh (input) charger would pretty end any issues i have.

Personally, I wish that 20kW* chargers became standard. 20kW L2 AC charging would be far more useful and future-proof than the currently 6-7kW we see today. Plus I have to believe that providing a 20kW AC EVSE would be cheaper than the ~25kW DC units which are starting to appear. The beauty of the J1772 protocol is that the car and the EVSE communicate their respective power limits, and the car charges at the minimum of the two. So a 20kW car (e.g. Model S/Rav4/??) can safely charge on a 3.3kW EVSE, albeit only at 3.3kW.

*Technically, they would pull up to 19.2kW, which is 80A @ 240V - the max for the J1772 protocol.

MODERATORS NOTE:
This thread split off from here: '16 30 kWh pack - backwards compatibility and warranty?
 
GetOffYourGas said:
TomT said:
I wonder if 2016 will see the continuation of the 6.0 Kw charger or will it become a real 6.6 Kw charger...

nerys said:
30kw with 6.6kwh (input) charger would pretty end any issues i have.

Personally, I wish that 20kW* chargers became standard. 20kW L2 AC charging would be far more useful and future-proof than the currently 6-7kW we see today. Plus I have to believe that providing a 20kW AC EVSE would be cheaper than the ~25kW DC units which are starting to appear. The beauty of the J1772 protocol is that the car and the EVSE communicate their respective power limits, and the car charges at the minimum of the two. So a 20kW car (e.g. Model S/Rav4/??) can safely charge on a 3.3kW EVSE, albeit only at 3.3kW.

*Technically, they would pull up to 19.2kW, which is 80A @ 240V - the max for the J1772 protocol.
Personally, I wouldn't want to pay for the electronics needed for such an endeavour in my car. Everyone has this thing that all sorts of charging needs to be insanely fast, but the reason it isn't on most vehicles is because it's pricey to do so. Tesla has it split into two 40A chargers for reasons. CHAdeMO reduces that cost by having the charge controller not integrated in the car. Having it on the J1772 means that you're gonna need to dissipate more heat and handle more current in the charger.
I'm not saying that they don't have a place, but there are very good reasons not to insist on them being the baseline. I also suspect that longevity could be a concern if you're consistently charging the batteries at QC-like currents, but as you said, just because the charger can do it doesn't mean you automatically would. I'd probably still charge at max 4.8kW even if I had the 6.0 or faster charger, just because I'm in a ~60 year old house and I don't want to pay to increase the service.
 
ishiyakazuo said:
Personally, I wouldn't want to pay for the electronics needed for such an endeavour in my car. Everyone has this thing that all sorts of charging needs to be insanely fast, but the reason it isn't on most vehicles is because it's pricey to do so. Tesla has it split into two 40A chargers for reasons. CHAdeMO reduces that cost by having the charge controller not integrated in the car. Having it on the J1772 means that you're gonna need to dissipate more heat and handle more current in the charger.
I'm not saying that they don't have a place, but there are very good reasons not to insist on them being the baseline. I also suspect that longevity could be a concern if you're consistently charging the batteries at QC-like currents, but as you said, just because the charger can do it doesn't mean you automatically would. I'd probably still charge at max 4.8kW even if I had the 6.0 or faster charger, just because I'm in a ~60 year old house and I don't want to pay to increase the service.

Fair enough. I can see value in not making it the baseline. I have a Voltec (15A) 240V EVSE in my garage, and I estimate that is all I will ever need at home. As it is, I get away with only charging my Leaf to 80% every 2-3 days (the exception is in the winter, when range is dramatically reduced and preheating is a God-send).

I do believe that all public L2 should support up to 80A. Yes, this is more expensive than the typical 32A EVSE we see today. But it is far more future-proof. In 5 years from now, most of those 32A public EVSEs will be useless - people will either charge at home, or want much faster charging on the road.

I also wish that every manufacturer - even the low-end ones - at least offered 20kW on-board chargers as an option. The impact would certainly cascade, requiring thicker wires, better cooling, larger footprint, etc. But coupled with a 20kW public infrastructure, I think it would be a very popular option in the near term.
 
I have to believe this drive to keep jacking up the charge current must be from the leasing people that likely could care less about the battery after their 3 years end. For owners, we do not need heat inducing current level ripping through the battery. At best it only does a little damage. At worst, especially combined with other environmental factors, it can be horrible to the long term life of the battery.

I personally do not see lack of high speed charging, either in amount of current or stations, is the problem. We will never get to Star Trek levels where someone plugs in a power pack and the blue line moves from empty to full in 10 seconds. The more important issues are battery range and battery life. Diverting resources to build out chargers of this type makes no sense.
 
I thought someone showed data that charging at 13.3k* was ok for the leaf battery with no damage over lifespan at all based on the math
 
GetOffYourGas said:
I do believe that all public L2 should support up to 80A. Yes, this is more expensive than the typical 32A EVSE we see today. But it is far more future-proof. In 5 years from now, most of those 32A public EVSEs will be useless - people will either charge at home, or want much faster charging on the road.
Agreed! I definitely think public L2s should support as high a current as is possible to be supported by the infrastructure.

GetOffYourGas said:
I also wish that every manufacturer - even the low-end ones - at least offered 20kW on-board chargers as an option. The impact would certainly cascade, requiring thicker wires, better cooling, larger footprint, etc. But coupled with a 20kW public infrastructure, I think it would be a very popular option in the near term.
Yes, as an option, sure. My comment was strictly that making the cars themselves always able to handle the maximum that the L2s can provide has limited appeal, especially as batteries get larger. For example, if I had a 48kWh battery, I'd say it's likely I could go as far as I'd like to most days on car trips on a single charge (I like to go about 3 hours a day, and then see the sights). Based on that, even if the L2 at that point is only 16A, I could go from empty to full in 12~13 hours, plenty of time for the next leg of the trip, probably (and it's likely that the public L2 is going to be 30A+ anyway, from what I've seen).
Personally, I think it's not very reasonable to assume that just because people have larger batteries, they're going to use them to their limits and still need multiple charges in a day in the majority of cases. In those cases, it's going to be all about the DCQC anyway. Tesla has the right idea there with the Supercharger network. Once batteries reach the capacity to match a gas tank in most BEVs, I expect that the majority of people will be done with driving for the day once the battery is tapped out, and "ready by morning" is going to be good enough for many.
 
Here in Oregon, the Aerovironment Chademo DC chargers range from 45 KW down to 8 KW, depending on where u are in the fullness of battery. I can see this with LeafSpy on my iPhone. Example: I pull into one of these DC QuickChargers with 15% left in my battery and the charge indicates about 40 KW going in to the battery until about 70% full, when it begins to ramp down to 30 KW, then around 90% full, it is down to 8KW. Best to switch to the L2 then if u need to top off to 100% so as not to hog the quick charger! These numbers vary a bit if the battery is hot from previous QCs. Slower charge rate when hot. Cold is really not a factor in my part of Oregon (Willamette Valley/I-5/Coast/Columbia Gorge). Okay I could mention the Cascades too since I have ventured over the passes. I am sooo lucky to have this QC infrastructure! I truly have a viable, regional EV for all trips within say 350 miles or so.
 
Yeah we have a lot of DCQC in the bay area, but I have yet to use one. Every time I drive by one they are always in use, so I don't know how reliable they are in a pinch.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
<snip>
I do believe that all public L2 should support up to 80A. Yes, this is more expensive than the typical 32A EVSE we see today. But it is far more future-proof. In 5 years from now, most of those 32A public EVSEs will be useless - people will either charge at home, or want much faster charging on the road.
IMO, I expect five years from now most public L2 charging will be wireless, making all those 80A J1772s obsolete.
 
Somehow i doubt that. Transmission efficiency over wireless is still struggling to get over 60% ie a lot of waisted power. It sure would be nice though.
 
nerys said:
Somehow i doubt that. Transmission efficiency over wireless is still struggling to get over 60% ie a lot of waisted power. It sure would be nice though.
Efficiency will lose out to convenience (along with reliability, protection from vandalism, and lower maintenance requirements). Upcoming high-end PEVs are already slated to incorporate wireless charging, and that will gradually move down market like other techs.
 
Hmmm the convenience and vandalism angle os a very good point. I dont see it in 5 years though you would essentually render every ev on the road unable to charge publicly. Since none currently have it and nobe are likely to for a few years.

Not have to plug it or being unable to because of vandals are nice things to see go away however :)
 
nerys said:
Hmmm the convenience and vandalism angle os a very good point. I dont see it in 5 years though you would essentually render every ev on the road unable to charge publicly. Since none currently have it and nobe are likely to for a few years.

Not have to plug it or being unable to because of vandals are nice things to see go away however :)
BTW, re efficiency, at least some of the wireless chargers are claiming ca. 95% efficiency. That's just for the charger before other losses, but if accurate lower efficiency doesn't seem like a big deal.

There will be a period where conductive connectors and wireless live side-by-side, but I think many companies are hesitant (even more than they are generally about the business case for public EVSEs) to expend a lot of money on high-powered L2 EVSEs, if they turn out to be dinosaurs a few years down the road. Things are still in too much flux (heh! unintentional), so they'd prefer to go the cheapest possible route for now until the picture is clearer. But I have no doubt whatsoever that if you offer an american the choice between greater convenience or greater efficiency, they'll opt for convenience as long as the cost difference isn't too high.
 
GRA said:
nerys said:
Hmmm the convenience and vandalism angle os a very good point. I dont see it in 5 years though you would essentually render every ev on the road unable to charge publicly. Since none currently have it and nobe are likely to for a few years.

Not have to plug it or being unable to because of vandals are nice things to see go away however :)
BTW, re efficiency, at least some of the wireless chargers are claiming ca. 95% efficiency. That's just for the charger before other losses, but if accurate lower efficiency doesn't seem like a big deal.

There will be a period where conductive connectors and wireless live side-by-side, but I think many companies are hesitant (even more than they are generally about the business case for public EVSEs) to expend a lot of money on high-powered L2 EVSEs, if they turn out to be dinosaurs a few years down the road. Things are still in too much flux (heh! unintentional), so they'd prefer to go the cheapest possible route for now until the picture is clearer. But I have no doubt whatsoever that if you offer an american the choice between greater convenience or greater efficiency, they'll opt for convenience as long as the cost difference isn't too high.
If they could guarantee that the L2 EVSE couldn't be plugged into an adjacent spot somehow, then they could have the same circuit do both the wireless charge and the L2, and mitigate the "dinosaur" issue.
 
ishiyakazuo said:
tkdbrusco said:
What is the amount of kw that flows through a Chademo plug?
I've heard 50kW stated a number of times. I think that there are different levels of CHAdeMO though too (I think 20kW is one?)
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/42176-CHAdeMO-Make-Model-Review-%C2%97-Using-with-a-Tesla/page16?p=961564&viewfull=1#post961564" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/42176-CHAdeMO-Make-Model-Review-%C2%97-Using-with-a-Tesla/page16?p=971287&viewfull=1#post971287" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
tkdbrusco said:
Yeah we have a lot of DCQC in the bay area, but I have yet to use one. Every time I drive by one they are always in use, so I don't know how reliable they are in a pinch.
If they're Blink, they're not reliable. Ditto for https://web.archive.org/web/20140207065003/http://nissanqc.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, esp, if on the Blink network.

NRG eVgo at their "Freedom Stations" w/CHAdeMO and SAE Combo tends to have one of the https://web.archive.org/web/20140207065003/http://nissanqc.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and then a dual-standard ABB DC FC. I've never used any of them since they're way too expensive: http://www.nrgevgo.com/san-francisco-bay-area/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but it sounds like they're much better at keeping their equipment running/completing repairs relatively quickly compared to Blink.

But, from numerous threads, it sounds like their billing system and accuracy are horrific.
 
GRA said:
...I expect five years from now most public L2 charging will be wireless, making all those 80A J1772s obsolete.
I hope that in ~five years BEV drivers (and those who are not) will finally understand there is no reason to have a charger in your BEV at all.

I expect at some time after this realization occurs, all BEVs will be equipped with a single DC charge port .

You will size your home charger to match to whatever your electrical service allows and your (often multiple) BEVs require.

Public DC chargers will be designed to match demand, so there will be many high kW DC charge stations along major roadways, and slower kW rate charge sites, only where BEVS spend their nights, at motels and at parking spaces dedicated to drivers without their own garages.

If you live in a remote area (like I do) you will still want to own or rent a portable charger for areas where public infrastructure is still limited to AC, but that requirement will soon fade into memory, as it is inherently far cheaper and simpler to install DC charge sites in remote areas, than (for example) gas stations.

cwerdna said:
...If they're Blink, they're not reliable...
Not my recent experience, though, IMO there is definitely a significant problem with the reliability of plugshare reports:

I didn't mention (below) that the two working DCs wrongly reported as down, By Tesla drivers, were both Blinks.

edatoakrun said:
I took a trip to the Bay area last week, ~700 miles over four days, and had a 100% DC success rate.

A little surprising, since two of the five DCs I used (Calistoga, Whole Foods Berkeley, BR San Ramon, Colma, and NB Nissan Petaluma) were last reported as down,- on plugshare.

With more and more drivers and BEV models with various (in)capabilities trying to use public charging, and with plugshare (unfortunately) placing comments by site, not giving separate comment sections to DCs, and not further segregating SAE combo comments fromCHAdeMO, there are more and more incorrect or ambiguous comments RE CHAdeMO functionality.

So I just want to remind all to please update site status when the DC is misreported as either working or not.

And specifically state that you used DC (and CHAdeMO, if there is a SAE combo DC at the site).

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do to screen out comments from those who have problems with L2, SAE DC, or Tesla adapters, if they don't state that themselves.

In my case (fortunately) the recent - comments from Tesla drivers at Calistoga And Serramonte Center apparently reflected problems with their charge systems, and I was able to charge normally.

On the way home, however, I drove the ~25 mile shorter route on old 99 (the I-5 corridor, which is still public DC-less from I-80 to Oregon) rather than risk a detour to the Chico DC. So I spent ~4 hours in Corning Saturday afternoon charging L2 at a very nice RV park, just across the street from the Tesla DCs.

PS has been updated since, and it now seems likely that the - report for Chico Nissan's DC was probably was just another report of driver/vehicle failure.

BTW, I didn't stop at Good Earth (CHAdeMO only) in Fairfax on my way to Pt. Reyes, which had the best/worst - comment of all the DCs on my route:
the charging cable doesn't fit my Prius
http://www.plugshare.com/#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5692&start=680" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
edatoakrun said:
I hope that in ~five years BEV drivers (and those who are not) will finally understand there is no reason to have a charger in your BEV at all.
No, thanks! I want a charger in my car if for no other reason than the convenience of being able to plug in anywhere.

In parts of Europe where there is three-phase electricity available, it is trivial to have high-power chargers in the vehicles. It is a bit more difficult in the U.S. with one-phase power, but it is certainly very doable. AC interconnections are much simpler than DC for a variety of reasons, one of them being that it is much easier to break the circuit.
 
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