Yogi62
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:29 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Apr 2013
Leaf Number: 405771
Location: Boston

Re: Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:24 am

Right now one can get a 2012 SV with less than 35,000 miles on it for under $7K.
If that car was $12,500 with a came with a brand new 24KW battery, would you buy it?
How about $15,000 with a brand new 30KW battery?

By comparison, 2012 Prius Plugin with under 45,000 miles are listed at $14K to $22K.

A more proactive battery replacement program with in the "coming off lease now owned by Nissan" fleet would raise resale values and make the new cars have a better value outlook. Plus the dealers would probably make a some money on swapping in the batteries and clear the lot of really cheap cars with lots of miles left in them.

cwerdna
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Re: Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:33 pm

Yogi62 wrote:Right now one can get a 2012 SV with less than 35,000 miles on it for under $7K.
If that car was $12,500 with a came with a brand new 24KW battery, would you buy it?

kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

As for what I think you're asking, no. I didn't think an '11 w/brand new battery due to capacity warranty replacement was worth $8,990: viewtopic.php?p=435921#p435921 (and my responses later on).

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

powersurge
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:37 am

cwerdna wrote:
Yogi62 wrote:Right now one can get a 2012 SV with less than 35,000 miles on it for under $7K.
If that car was $12,500 with a came with a brand new 24KW battery, would you buy it?

kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

------------------------------------------------

I would like to make a motion for people to stop correcting other members posts when it is clear what they are saying. They did not ask to be corrected, and I see this all the time. Would you correct people's speech when you are face to face with them?

For me, I will say that I love plugging in my "charger" to top off my 24 "KW" battery. Correct that.

cwerdna
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Re: Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:48 pm

cwerdna wrote:kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

powersurge wrote:I would like to make a motion for people to stop correcting other members posts when it is clear what they are saying. They did not ask to be corrected, and I see this all the time. Would you correct people's speech when you are face to face with them?

They didn't ask to be corrected since they probably didn't realize they were wrong. Just because you see it "all the time" doesn't make it right. If EV enthusiasts can't get it right and develop good habits (and pass along proper information to others), how can we expect others to get it right?

My job requires that I be detail oriented. Also, if I were on the other end a service advisor, at an EV/PHEV automaker, EVSE/charging station company and someone made complaints to be me and was WAY off in their usage of units, I'd question whether the person knew what they were talking about.

We've had repeatedly correct this one one guy like at http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=389321#p389321.

Using incorrect units can get confusing when certain numbers are similar...

The Model S is currently available with 70 and 90 kWh capacity batteries. And, it has 10 kW and 20 kW AC charging options... I recall older Teslas being limited to 90 kW Supercharging.

Most sub-$40K pure BEVs have usable battery capacities in the 20 kWh range. The Gen 1 Volt had ~10.5 kWh usable.

http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 7317#p1750 says a Leaf needs almost 23 kW to maintain 70 mph.

Tesla Model S can have either single 10 kW OBC or dual OBCs for 20 kW charging on 80 amp EVSEs. Leaf has a 24 or 30 kWh capacity battery. BMW/Bosch has a 24 kW SAE Combo DC FC: http://www.bmwicharging.com/BMWiDCFastCharger

Other recent Tesla-powered vehicles (e.g. Rav4 and Mercedes B-Class ED) have a single 10 kW OBC.

Rav4 EV has ~41.8 kWh battery. Many CHAdeMO DC FCs are only 44 kW at max. Wait. Why is it when a Rav4 EV w/JdeMO plugs in that it it can draw up to 48 kW even though it has a 41.8 kWh battery?

See how things can be confusing, if the wrong units are used? There was a great post on MNL (which I can't find) that made light of it and pointed out the importance...

And yes, I would correct someone in face to face conversation if they get it wrong. I'm pretty sure I have before on this very subject.

Take a look at the attached pics. Imagine the confusion if people were talking about charging rates, ramp down, etc. if they routinely mixed up kW and kWh (and had no notes nor pics).
powersurge wrote:For me, I will say that I love plugging in my "charger" (possibly EVSE) to top off my 24 "kWh" battery. Correct that.

FYP
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'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

jlsoaz
Posts: 582
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Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:08 pm

Yogi62 wrote:Right now one can get a 2012 SV with less than 35,000 miles on it for under $7K.
If that car was $12,500 with a came with a brand new 24KW battery, would you buy it?
How about $15,000 with a brand new 30KW battery?


fwiw:

I guess my answer is that I'd have to think twice before I took out a partial loan to buy a $15k 30 kWh 2012 Leaf. Considerations include that I'd be taking out a loan to buy something that might well have only a 15-24 kWh capacity by the time that I am through paying off the loan. If it's a choice between such a vehicle (I'd probably only get one if it is one of the trims that had a CHAdeMO port) and some of the other competing new BEVs such as a 24 kWh 2016 Leaf, then I take the used 30 kWh retrofitted Leaf..

Yogi62 wrote:By comparison, 2012 Prius Plugin with under 45,000 miles are listed at $14K to $22K.

A more proactive battery replacement program with in the "coming off lease now owned by Nissan" fleet would raise resale values and make the new cars have a better value outlook. Plus the dealers would probably make a some money on swapping in the batteries and clear the lot of really cheap cars with lots of miles left in them.


Yes, regardless of the exact price that each of us might pay, you have more or less articulated a point of why I started the thread. Retrofitting the original vehicles with updated batteries would (arguably) be a way for Nissan to keep the older Leafs of higher value and anticipate changes that will happen to the market once dozens and hundreds of thousands of 100+ mile range used BEVs are on the market. Counter-arguments might include that (even without the poor battery thermal management Achilles' Heel) it was always going to be the case that short-range BEVs, such as the original Leaf, were going to have a tough time in the used market as longer-range BEVs inevitably were introduced.
josh@jlaz.com
near Tucson, AZ, USA
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/vehicle.php?vid=229
opinions expressed are my own

taloyd
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Leaf Number: 422799
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Contact: Website

Re: Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:03 pm

powersurge wrote:I would like to make a motion for people to stop correcting other members posts when it is clear what they are saying. [...] Would you correct people's speech when you are face to face with them?


cwerdna wrote:They didn't ask to be corrected since they probably didn't realize they were wrong. Just because you see it "all the time" doesn't make it right. If EV enthusiasts can't get it right and develop good habits (and pass along proper information to others), how can we expect others to get it right?



Cwerdna is doing a public service and should be lauded as such - I've actually never seen an explanation as elegant as kW = HP and kWH = gallons before.

Disseminating false information, or (even worse) knowingly propagating incorrect usage of technical details is counter-productive. This is a forum for people to learn about Nissan Leafs/EVs - this is exactly the place where it should be corrected. Please don't encourage suppressing speech - especially exactly the sort of speech that CLEARS up misconceptions and ADDS to the pool of [correct, useful] knowledge.

I'll leave it alone now - just amazed/offended someone would go out of their way to admonish someone for providing useful, correct information in favor of misleading/false information.
2017 Bolt LT (w/ DCQC)
Purchased 2017/07
MON DIEU - what a treat!

2013 Leaf SV
Purchased (not leased!) 2013/09
59,860 - lost first bar. :-(

cwerdna
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Re: Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:27 pm

^^^
Thanks! Indeed. And to elaborate more, 1 hp = ~0.746 kW. And, various .gov sites say that 1 gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 33.7 kWh.

Also, in some places, instead of using horsepower to describe how powerful an engine is, they actually use kW or PS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepowe ... ns_of_term and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepowe ... horsepower).

Example: http://www2.nissan.co.jp/NOTE/e121208g0 ... model=NOTE shows kW and PS, but no hp.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

wwhitney
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2011
Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:46 pm

cwerdna wrote:And, various .gov sites say that 1 gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 33.7 kWh.

Just to clarify, that's equivalent in the sense that if a magic engine could completely burn gasoline and convert all the energy released into electricity, it would generate 33.7 kWh/gallon of gas. If you had such a 100% efficient engine, in a Volt, say, and you usually drive at an efficiency of 4 mi/kWh, then you could get 135 mpg. The fact than the Volt gets only 40-50 mpg when run on gas alone (I forget the exact number) shows that real gas engines are more like 30% efficient.

Cheers, Wayne

jlsoaz
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:08 pm

cwerdna wrote:^^^
Thanks! Indeed. And to elaborate more, 1 hp = ~0.746 kW. And, various .gov sites say that 1 gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 33.7 kWh. [...]


Hi - also, I find it useful to keep in mind that the 33.7 kWh figure is what I guess might be called a necessary approximation. My understanding (and going from memory) is that a gallon of gasoline when combusted will release anything from (very roughly) under 100,000 btu to more than 130,000 btu. Conversion factor for BTU to kWh is 1 kWh = approx. 3412 btu. Since some government sites indicate 33.7 kWh, this means that an assumption of about 115k btu for a gallon of gasoline is being used, which seems kind of middle ground/reasonable.... I just think it's not necessarily the only one that could have been chosen.
josh@jlaz.com
near Tucson, AZ, USA
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/vehicle.php?vid=229
opinions expressed are my own

wwhitney
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2011
Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:18 pm

jlsoaz wrote: My understanding (and going from memory) is that a gallon of gasoline when combusted will release anything from (very roughly) under 100,000 btu to more than 130,000 btu.

Your comment got me curious so I decided to check wikipedia. The fuels commonly called gasoline produce between 111,000 and 115,000 BTUs/gallon, so the range is much tighter. But diesel produces 130,000 BTUs/gallon, while E85 produces only 82,000 BTU/gallon.

Cheers, Wayne

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