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RegGuheert
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Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

2015 Nissan LEAF Last in Resale Value

Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:59 am

CleanTechnica reports the 2015 Nissan LEAF Last In Resale Value based on a study of more than 300 vehicles and over 46,000 transactions:
CleanTechnica wrote:The 2015 Nissan LEAF has the worst initial resale value of all 2015 model-year vehicles, according to a new study from the car concierge website Carlypso.com.

The new report found that the 2015 Nissan LEAF depreciates, on average, 48%, by the time of the first resale.

The Nissan LEAF was followed closely on the list by the Dodge Charger (45%), the Mercedes-Benz SL-Class (41%), the Chevrolet Camaro (39%), the Kia Cadenza (38%), the Volkswagen Beetle (37%), the Chevrolet Express (37%), the Mitsubishi Lancer (35%), the Kia Optima (35%), and the Cadillac CTS (34%).
As the article notes, that is partly due to the LEAF being the cheapest BEV to receive the largest tax credits on BEVs. But the issue of battery degradation also certainly plays a major.

Hopefully the new battery technology and warranty found in the SV and SL 2016s will greatly improve this situation.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

Evoforce
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: 2015 Nissan LEAF Last in Resale Value

Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:24 am

Do 2016 batteries have new technology that makes them more durable or are they just larger capacity? The reason I ask is because the 2015 lizard battery is not more durable than any of the previous batteries. Do you have a link to where they state that they are improved beyond the fact that they are larger capacity and warrantied for longer before they reach 8 bars?
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 51,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 5512
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
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Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: 2015 Nissan LEAF Last in Resale Value

Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:38 am

Evoforce wrote:Do 2016 batteries have new technology that makes them more durable or are they just larger capacity?
It seems clear that many EV manufacturers, including Nissan are moving to NMC Li-ion battery chemistry. Battery University indicates that NMC offers BOTH higher capacity AND longer lifespan than LMO.

On top of that, much has been learned about Li-ion battery life extension through additives that can (and will) be applied as time marches on.

Perhaps more importantly, the industry has now learned how to assess Li-ion battery capacity retension in a few days rather than over many years. This breakthrough should greatly improve the ability of vendors to understand their products BEFORE the put them into the field.
Evoforce wrote:The reason I ask is because the 2015 lizard battery is not more durable than any of the previous batteries.
Do you have a link to where they state that they are not improved? ;) (BTW, notice that Nissan offers the SAME capacity warranty for the "Lizard" battery as all previous versions of the LEAF battery.)
Evoforce wrote:Do you have a link to where they state that they are improved beyond the fact that they are larger capacity and warrantied for longer before they reach 8 bars?
Truly the capacity warranty is a fully-sufficient statement to satisfy me, since it is a statement they will have to back up. Basically, the 2016 SV/SL LEAFs are guaranteed at the end of 10 years or 100,000 miles to retain as much capacity as a 2011-2015 LEAF has when showing all 12 capacity bars.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

goodluckcharlie
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:53 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Dec 2015
Location: NJ

Re: 2015 Nissan LEAF Last in Resale Value

Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:00 pm

As someone who is looking to make a purchase, when I see posts like this and articles making these claims, I tend to get worried. I don't need the best resale value in the world, but I don't want "dead last" either. ;)

Evoforce
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: 2015 Nissan LEAF Last in Resale Value

Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:59 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
Evoforce wrote:Do 2016 batteries have new technology that makes them more durable or are they just larger capacity?
It seems clear that many EV manufacturers, including Nissan are moving to NMC Li-ion battery chemistry. Battery University indicates that NMC offers BOTH higher capacity AND longer lifespan than LMO.

On top of that, much has been learned about Li-ion battery life extension through additives that can (and will) be applied as time marches on.

Perhaps more importantly, the industry has now learned how to assess Li-ion battery capacity retension in a few days rather than over many years. This breakthrough should greatly improve the ability of vendors to understand their products BEFORE the put them into the field.
Evoforce wrote:The reason I ask is because the 2015 lizard battery is not more durable than any of the previous batteries.
Do you have a link to where they state that they are not improved? ;) (BTW, notice that Nissan offers the SAME capacity warranty for the "Lizard" battery as all previous versions of the LEAF battery.)
Evoforce wrote:Do you have a link to where they state that they are improved beyond the fact that they are larger capacity and warrantied for longer before they reach 8 bars?
Truly the capacity warranty is a fully-sufficient statement to satisfy me, since it is a statement they will have to back up. Basically, the 2016 SV/SL LEAFs are guaranteed at the end of 10 years or 100,000 miles to retain as much capacity as a 2011-2015 LEAF has when showing all 12 capacity bars.



Maybe I could have worded my question more specifically. Has Nissan made any statements that the 30kWh battery is more durable than any that they have produced before it? Have they provided active cooling for this battery or improved it in any way other than adding another 6kWh? If not, have they given any indication that they will make durability improvements in the near future?

Lizard battery is not more durable than previous batteries and I would like to know if the 30kWh battery will suffer the same rapid degradation in hotter climates. 8 bars will take longer to reach with a 6kWh battery expansion, but from what I have heard they are not tying the warranty to percentage of loss as they have referred to in the past. Granted the warranty was triggered at 8 bars which is varying as to exact percentage of loss on all vehicles. Are you sure that warranty will trigger at what we consider was a new pack in 2015 or will it be triggered at the same level as the 8 bars are now? That equivalent would be 40-45 miles on surface streets going no faster than 45mph.

I am glad that others before me fought for our ability to get new replacement batteries for the 2011-2012 batteries. There is still no outright capacity warranty stating (new) replacement on model year cars produced after 2012. Repair to a minimum of 9 bars is what is stated.

I was hoping you had more information on the 2016 30kWh battery, that I do not have enough information on, at this point. I don't know if anyone does. My thought was that you might know something that I hadn't heard yet. As for my proof that the batteries (lizard) that were made to be more durable but are not, they are both sitting in my driveway.

Don't take this as if we don't love our cars, because we really do! Each leaf will be getting 7 years useable from the original battery including it's replacement battery in total. The next replacement for each car, one in another 2.5 years (one year old already) and the other car in 3.5 years (new now). At current prices and 2 cars, that will be over $12,000 relatively soon out of pocket. The 10 bar car that I bought out of California lasted (less than) 1 year before dropping to 8 bars. Every other major manufacturer is providing cooling to their traction batteries and Nissan is not measuring up.

This is the Achilles heal that Nissan has not yet addressed for those of us in hotter climate regions. Also the availability of quick charging (QC) and it's lack of maintenance or durability, is a problem.

Those that do not want EV's to succeed are eager to latch on to these deficiencies to dissuade others. I am an enthusiast so I am not so easily dissuaded.

On Ebay there is a 2011 Leaf for sale for $6,700. The dealer is selling this car as if it is near perfect. It is a 9 bar car with not enough time to qualify for free replacement. The capacity warranty expires 2/1/2016. $6,700 (car)+ $6,100 (battery) puts it at roughly $13,000 to make it useable in the near term. Some unsuspecting buyer is going to be angry, and rightly so, and be negative toward electric vehicles. My cars have new batteries and are of the same year, but more examples of the one for sale on Ebay, will continue to drag the value of my cars down the tube. And there will be more of them... We are just on the tip of that iceberg!

Bluebook, NADA, etc, are not yet set up to deal with EV's and I believe unfairly value them for a variety of reasons. This also leads to devaluation... How can they tell if a main component of the car was new or depleted when they compile a list of comparable vehicles sold to determine a fair value?
Last edited by Evoforce on Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 51,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

Flyct
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Leaf Number: 307113
Location: Bradenton, Florida, US

Re: 2015 Nissan LEAF Last in Resale Value

Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:47 am

The Article states "In 2015 the Leaf’s MSRP ranged from $29,010 to $35,120, and it’s previously been observed as having one of the highest depreciation rates. Factors impacting the Leaf’s resale value may include federal and state purchase incentives combined with manufacturer-backed incentives. Put plainly, buyers may net what is tantamount to a proportionately substantial $7,500 to over $10,000 incentive break – an effective discount of up to one-third of MSRP – that’s not available to used Leaf buyers."

The Article has False Math!!!!!

Nobody pays MSRP for a 2015 Leaf today. With $5,000 NMAC Cash, $6,000 dealer discounts and $7,500 tax credit the real price of a $35,120 2015 Leaf is effectively reduced by $18,500 so a $35,120 2015 Leaf is about $17,000 or already 45% of list price. If you live in a state with additional incentives the deal is even better.
2015 Pearl White Leaf SL with Premium (Bose) package
2015 Lexus RX450h Hybrid SUV
2016 Ford F-150 Super Crew
Blissfully Retired and loving it!

rogersleaf
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:50 pm
Delivery Date: 17 May 2014
Leaf Number: 337936
Location: Kent, Ohio

Re: 2015 Nissan LEAF Last in Resale Value

Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:56 am

The resale market is not forgiving. The market is driven by pure economic arguments, not environmental considerations or artificial (government) incentives. Any model that has known 4-figure repair bills pending simply will not do well (i.e...$6K battery replacement). In a $4/gal fuel market the economic argument for a LEAF was marginal at best. At under $2/gal, not a chance I would have got this car. Thankfully this car is leased so the only "loss" will be not building equity in a vehicle due to not getting a high resale vehicle. The LEAF will likely be the only & best car I have ever returned after a lease.
2014 SV - Brilliant Silver

edatoakrun
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Re: 2015 Nissan LEAF Last in Resale Value

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:13 am

="RegGuheert"
CleanTechnica reports the 2015 Nissan LEAF Last In Resale Value based on a study of more than 300 vehicles and over 46,000 transactions:
CleanTechnica wrote:The 2015 Nissan LEAF has the worst initial resale value of all 2015 model-year vehicles, according to a new study from the car concierge website Carlypso.com.

The new report found that the 2015 Nissan LEAF depreciates, on average, 48%, by the time of the first resale.

The Nissan LEAF was followed closely on the list by the Dodge Charger (45%), the Mercedes-Benz SL-Class (41%), the Chevrolet Camaro (39%), the Kia Cadenza (38%), the Volkswagen Beetle (37%), the Chevrolet Express (37%), the Mitsubishi Lancer (35%), the Kia Optima (35%), and the Cadillac CTS (34%).
...

It's hard for me to believe that anyone would take such obvious bullshit seriously.

Of the two most obvious flaws in the study, one is explained in some detail below:

...if you take $7,500 from the price (MSRP + $850 destination charge) of $29,860 (2016 base 24 kWh version) and $35,050 (2016 base 30 kWh version), you immediately get a 25% and 19.5% lower price…which lowers the effect ‘real world’ depreciation to somewhere between 23% and 27.5%...

http://insideevs.com/2015-nissan-leaf-depreciates-car/

As to the list of cars you posted, it is obvious that all other low-priced BEVs/PHEVs were excluded from consideration.

If you start with an erroneous basis, all other low-priced vehicles that receive large subsidies at sale/lease will show the similar (incorrect) depreciation rates as the LEAF.

Apply the same methodology to any other inexpensive BEV or PHEV that received the federal tax credit (and other discounts and incentives)and you will get a far higher percentage drop than 34%, and some (depending on your data source) will exceed the 48% reported for the LEAF.
no condition is permanent

pkulak
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Location: Portland, OR

Re: 2015 Nissan LEAF Last in Resale Value

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:15 pm

Until people start taking the $7500 credit into account, BEVs will always be dead last in depreciation. Of course, $7500 of that depreciates right into the buyer's pocket...

LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2015 Nissan LEAF Last in Resale Value

Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:22 pm

The Article has False Math!!!!!

Nobody pays MSRP for a 2015 Leaf today. With $5,000 NMAC Cash, $6,000 dealer discounts and $7,500 tax credit the real price of a $35,120 2015 Leaf is effectively reduced by $18,500 so a $35,120 2015 Leaf is about $17,000 or already 45% of list price. If you live in a state with additional incentives the deal is even better.


Studies like this have to use the current model year, not last year's leftover cars. I assume this study was actually done in 2015, as it's only January of 2016.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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