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LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4469
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:09 am

When the first DVD players came out they were $1200. I suppose there could be some people who bought those that look back and feel proud to be part of that, but for most it was a more prudent personal finance decision to hold off and let others slice the top off the adoption pyramid.

Don't doubt me on the $500 insurance difference. That's how much additional it was costing me to drive a three year old Volt vs a brand new ICE crossover, for a middle aged guy with perfect credit, no tickets and no claims, living in the land of the scam where insurance fraud and personal injury lawyers run rampant. Insurance companies are just number crunching machines, and the numbers reflect the reality that for a Volt or Leaf it doesn't take much to total them, and if it is repairable it's going to cost a lot more than an ICE.

Don't take it as negativity, it's just reality. The technology of advanced powertrains holds great potential (no pun) and will no doubt become mainstream, just as DVDs replaced VHS tapes. But for folks with limited resources looking for the best value out of their transportation dollar they will do well to recognize the difference between a $1200 DVD player and one for $59, just like the 2016 Model S for $80k vs the 2025 Chevy Bolt with the 300 mile range for $18k.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

powersurge
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
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Location: Long Island, NY

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:49 am

Yes, I understand your points. At this time in the evolution of these things, they are affordable, and one who owns a Leaf is saving money whenever they drive them.

I don't equate the Leaf with a $1200 DVD player because we can now drive a Leaf for $18-20K NEW. I agree that it was not a smart move for the average consumer to have bought the first CD players in 1980 for $1000, when there were only 100 titles made on CDs then.

I love my Leaf, and will drive it into the ground, and have my other cars as additional transportation choices... A minivan for hauling, a Miata for convertibling, and a Caddy for nice family outings...

tattoogunman
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:17 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2016
Location: Plano, Texas

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:36 pm

powersurge wrote:HOLY CRAP!

The tone that I hear on this topic is so depressing that I am shocked a 'LEAF FORUM" would have these negative opinions!
It sounds like a bunch of Kindergarten kids at the playground who are picking up their toys and going home!

First, anyone who is "getting rid of their leaf" because of possible future problems, $500 more insurance (you must be young with marks on your driving record), "GAS IS CHEAP" or just "it's not the right time" have been seduced by the media and brainwashed.

Especially young people (under 40) are still interested in instant gratification and have never ever been exposed to the past phases of the petroleum history.

We all must embrace the right to an "alternate" fuel vehicle, while knowing that we are not increasing the petroleum shortage in the near future. I have a Leaf and it is the best car I have ever owned. Why? because I can live my life just as well as the gas guzzler public, and not spend a drop of petroleum. In the life of my Leaf, I will NOT use 10,000 gallons of petroleum (that is one gas tanker truck full).

Isnt that a reason to tolerate all of the "NEGATIVES" (which are not negatives, but current limitations) of the product we own.

This is not an all or nothing situation. In the futures, EVs will get better and better, but we must adopt the current technology as a great success. For example, the first internal combustion cars were crap, they were bicycles with motors on them with a top speed of 20 miles per hour. The first consumer computers were crap, with only a green screen where you could just type. BUT these early products were magic because they could do something that could never be done before..... The EV is MAGIC, and I personally will be "IN" on this roller coaster ride for the rest of my life..

Years from now everyone will be saying, "Remember the Leaf?", and you could say that your were part of that!!


I was a bit surprised as well and I've seen a similar tone on other brand sites (Mitsubishi, etc.). I'm actually in a position right now that, commute distance wise, I am the perfect candidate. I work about five miles from the house and my school is less than ten miles from the house (I just picked up an e-bike that I'm going to use for commuting back and forth). Given my average distances traveled at the moment, an EV would be perfect. Now when I used to have to commute like 70 miles or so when I still had a real job? Not so much.

GRA
Posts: 8369
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:44 pm

tattoogunman wrote:I was a bit surprised as well and I've seen a similar tone on other brand sites (Mitsubishi, etc.). I'm actually in a position right now that, commute distance wise, I am the perfect candidate. I work about five miles from the house and my school is less than ten miles from the house (I just picked up an e-bike that I'm going to use for commuting back and forth). Given my average distances traveled at the moment, an EV would be perfect. Now when I used to have to commute like 70 miles or so when I still had a real job? Not so much.

If you want to get into an EV, with your situation you have the perfect one, an e-bike for commuting, plus the 500 for any trips you might take/inclement weather etc.

As for the tone here, it's based on a lot of hard-won knowledge by a lot of people. Early on, many of the early adopters were as optimistic (I'd call it unrealistic) about BEVs as a few recent adoptees still are. But they really aren't magic, just a means of transport, and once most people get past the initial "I'm driving on electricity!" phase, typically after 6-18 months, they start assessing how well the car works _as a car_ and as an expensive durable good, and their attitudes become a lot more realistic, especially once degradation starts to affect them. The situation will improve once the longer range Gen 2 BEVs show up, and their usable battery lifetimes for local use extend out a decade or more for almost anyone. Even so, they'll be a very expensive way to acquire a car still primarily limited to local/regional driving, albeit of utility (when fairly new) for shorter road trips.

There are some people who are primarily motivated by environmental concerns or who are fascinated by the technology, who will stick with a BEV no matter how much inconvenience it adds to their life or what the value proposition is, but most people are (have to be) more concerned with other matters. Your situation is definitely the latter. So, the e-bike is an excellent choice, but if you find yourself just determined to get some kind of EV car, I'd second the recommendation for a used Volt (and sell the 500). The Volt's battery has an excellent temperature management system, which is important in Texas, and even after it starts to show user-detectable degradation (no Volts have done so yet, owing to conservative design practice and limiting the usable SoC) you'll still have a fully drivable car that will last a decade or more without needing a battery replacement.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

tattoogunman
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:17 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2016
Location: Plano, Texas

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:47 am

GRA wrote:
tattoogunman wrote:I was a bit surprised as well and I've seen a similar tone on other brand sites (Mitsubishi, etc.). I'm actually in a position right now that, commute distance wise, I am the perfect candidate. I work about five miles from the house and my school is less than ten miles from the house (I just picked up an e-bike that I'm going to use for commuting back and forth). Given my average distances traveled at the moment, an EV would be perfect. Now when I used to have to commute like 70 miles or so when I still had a real job? Not so much.

If you want to get into an EV, with your situation you have the perfect one, an e-bike for commuting, plus the 500 for any trips you might take/inclement weather etc.

As for the tone here, it's based on a lot of hard-won knowledge by a lot of people. Early on, many of the early adopters were as optimistic (I'd call it unrealistic) about BEVs as a few recent adoptees still are. But they really aren't magic, just a means of transport, and once most people get past the initial "I'm driving on electricity!" phase, typically after 6-18 months, they start assessing how well the car works _as a car_ and as an expensive durable good, and their attitudes become a lot more realistic, especially once degradation starts to affect them. The situation will improve once the longer range Gen 2 BEVs show up, and their usable battery lifetimes for local use extend out a decade or more for almost anyone. Even so, they'll be a very expensive way to acquire a car still primarily limited to local/regional driving, albeit of utility (when fairly new) for shorter road trips.

There are some people who are primarily motivated by environmental concerns or who are fascinated by the technology, who will stick with a BEV no matter how much inconvenience it adds to their life or what the value proposition is, but most people are (have to be) more concerned with other matters. Your situation is definitely the latter. So, the e-bike is an excellent choice, but if you find yourself just determined to get some kind of EV car, I'd second the recommendation for a used Volt (and sell the 500). The Volt's battery has an excellent temperature management system, which is important in Texas, and even after it starts to show user-detectable degradation (no Volts have done so yet, owing to conservative design practice and limiting the usable SoC) you'll still have a fully drivable car that will last a decade or more without needing a battery replacement.


I've been talking to some people on a Volt forum and there really aren't very many people having problems and if there are, they are minor. The Volt appeals to me because you always have that gas backup (and I know the point is to get away from that). They are also starting to show up quite regularly on the secondary market because everyone's leases are starting to end, etc. I guess my biggest fear with a pure EV is if I loose power at the house. I've been in situations over the last several years where we have lost power for a day or more (up to a week in one case) and I was thinking about those scenarios - what do I do with my pure EV if I can't charge it up at home and the battery is near dead? When the power goes out here, it almost always affects surrounding areas (like shopping centers) which may be my nearest charging spot(s). Then on the other hand, I am find Leaf's for sale in the area with under 10,000 miles on them for under $10K (cheaper than what the used Volts are going for). I may go test drive a Volt today to see how it drives and what not.

User avatar
LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4469
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:10 am

Volt owners seem to generally be a more satisfied lot than LEAF owners, despite the fact it's a hybrid instead of an EV. We would have kept the Volt had it been a more practical format, while the LEAF was just too limiting and carried too much uncertainty.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1783
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:35 am

Yes, the point of an EV is to get away from gasoline. The Volt reduces most owners' gasoline usage by a factor of 3-4. So what you get is a dramatic reduction in fossil fuels, without restrictions on where you can refuel. Unless and until QCing is as common/easy as buying gasoline, most people won't be willing to make the leap to BEV.

The Volt is a great option, and I hope we see a lot more of them now that the second generation is available.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

dm33
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 4:43 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:10 am

tattoogunman wrote:I've been talking to some people on a Volt forum and there really aren't very many people having problems and if there are, they are minor. The Volt appeals to me because you always have that gas backup (and I know the point is to get away from that). They are also starting to show up quite regularly on the secondary market because everyone's leases are starting to end, etc. I guess my biggest fear with a pure EV is if I loose power at the house. I've been in situations over the last several years where we have lost power for a day or more (up to a week in one case) and I was thinking about those scenarios - what do I do with my pure EV if I can't charge it up at home and the battery is near dead? When the power goes out here, it almost always affects surrounding areas (like shopping centers) which may be my nearest charging spot(s). Then on the other hand, I am find Leaf's for sale in the area with under 10,000 miles on them for under $10K (cheaper than what the used Volts are going for). I may go test drive a Volt today to see how it drives and what not.

On the flip side, I was set up to use the LEAF as a backup power supply for the house during power outages. 24 kwh battery can power quite a bit for quite a while. I have an inverter powerful enough to run our refrigerator and sump pump. Enough for our essential needs.

GRA
Posts: 8369
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:33 pm

tattoogunman wrote:I've been talking to some people on a Volt forum and there really aren't very many people having problems and if there are, they are minor. The Volt appeals to me because you always have that gas backup (and I know the point is to get away from that). They are also starting to show up quite regularly on the secondary market because everyone's leases are starting to end, etc. I guess my biggest fear with a pure EV is if I loose power at the house. I've been in situations over the last several years where we have lost power for a day or more (up to a week in one case) and I was thinking about those scenarios - what do I do with my pure EV if I can't charge it up at home and the battery is near dead? When the power goes out here, it almost always affects surrounding areas (like shopping centers) which may be my nearest charging spot(s). Then on the other hand, I am find Leaf's for sale in the area with under 10,000 miles on them for under $10K (cheaper than what the used Volts are going for). I may go test drive a Volt today to see how it drives and what not.

I've always felt that a BEV will need to have at least two days autonomy on the battery for normal/emergency usage, for the reason you state above, before the general public will accept them. That way, if the power goes out overnight while you sleep (or you forget to plug in, as has happened to even some dedicated EV owners), you can still get back and forth to work and/or to a hospital, and have time to make other arrangements in case the outage is prolonged. But a PHEV, especially a longer-ranged one like the Volt, buys you even more freedom/options - you're covered for several days either way. And if the electricity is out over a wide area, then unless gas stations in that area are required to have backup generators you won't be able to pump gas either, so it's nice to know you can drive 300 miles or more before that's an issue. If the outage is that prolonged, then FEMA etc. should be bringing in generators or providing fuel so that people can gas up and evacuate if needed.

One downside to the Gen. 1 Volt is the limited visibility to the front corners owing to the wide A-pillars needed to meet rollover requirements with the highly sloped windshield; another is that it only has four seats, if that's a problem. In Texas, you probably don't care about having 'Hold' Mode (available on 2013-2015) in addition to 'Mountain Mode' (2011-2015).

Other used PHEV options would be the Ford Fusion or C-Max Energis, if you can find any around. They're rated at 19 miles AER, which will cover most if not all of your routine needs, and also offer five seats, but they have limited cargo height (the battery was put under the cargo bay/trunk floor, which is several inches higher than the ICE/hybrid versions).

All that being said, the e-bike is your most efficient, lowest cost option for your commute (barring a regular bike, but 10 miles each way is more time and effort than the casual rider is likely to be comfortable with; serious cycle commuters will happily do that and a lot more). When speaking of an e-bike, is the one you have essentially a moped, or a pedelec (you have to pedal, but you can add various levels of assistance)?

Oh, yeah, re LEAFs in Texas. Don't do it, it's too hot. The people who will tell you the LEAF if fine without a TMS (Thermal or Temperature Management System) live in much cooler climates than you. For battery longevity in Texas, you want an active TMS, preferably liquid-cooled. The Volt has both, and IIRR the Fords also use a liquid-cooled TMS (might be AC-cooled instead; I forget). What you don't want is any BEV/PHEV that just uses ambient air blown by a fan, or one like the LEAF that has no cooling at all. Heat kills batteries.

About the only relatively affordable BEV I'd recommend for Texas would be a 2014 Spark EV, and they weren't sold there. The 2014s used a Lithium-Iron-Phosphate battery, which is more heat tolerant than the Li-Manganese-Oxide batteries used in the LEAF, the 2015+ Spark and most non-Tesla BEVs. The Sparks also have liquid-cooled TMS.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GerryAZ
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Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:05 pm

I am one early adopter who is never going back to ICE (I never left). I added the 2011 LEAF to my fleet of vehicles in June of 2011 with no increase in my total insurance bill. Unfortunately, it met its demise and the 2015 added about $100 every six months to my bill. I choose the vehicle that I drive depending upon where I am going (one of my motorcycles, one of my 4X4 vehicles, or the LEAF). The LEAF accumulates most of the annual mileage due to commuting in the car pool lane. I am saving enough on gasoline, ICE vehicle maintenance, and wear/tear on the ICE vehicles to cover depreciation on the LEAF and pay for a new battery if I ever need it (it will be quite a while because the 2015 battery is doing much better than either the original or replacement battery in the 2011).

Gerry
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

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