DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:50 am

dm33 wrote:We ordered a Mini Cooper in January, it arrived this past week and we bought it yesterday. Starting the return process for the LEAF.
A real shame. I never thought I'd go back to an ICE. Feels like such a step backwards. But 2016 rates have been too high, there's still a new 2015 for sale for too much, our residual is still almost $20,000. And my commute is potentially more erratic requiring much longer range. No long range option yet available.
I hope I can get back into an EV without losing my shirt on the Mini. We may get a Pacifica EV to replace our 10yr old Grand Caravan, although its still doing well at 140k.


sounds like the too common issue of nonexistent public charging support. yeah, got that here too. it sucks and its getting worse, not better. the glow of federal funding for the initial installs has long since faded to black.

Now I know how people without a penny to their name feel when they go on a game show and win a car only to be told they can't have the car until they pay the sales tax...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4669
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:02 am

dm33 wrote:We ordered a Mini Cooper in January, it arrived this past week and we bought it yesterday. Starting the return process for the LEAF.
A real shame. I never thought I'd go back to an ICE. Feels like such a step backwards. But 2016 rates have been too high, there's still a new 2015 for sale for too much, our residual is still almost $20,000. And my commute is potentially more erratic requiring much longer range. No long range option yet available.
I hope I can get back into an EV without losing my shirt on the Mini. We may get a Pacifica EV to replace our 10yr old Grand Caravan, although its still doing well at 140k.

Sometimes when I'm pumping a whole $17 worth of gas into the Sentra I'm reminded why most people don't think any of this is worth the bother. The value proposition just isn't there on new LEAFs; I'm still trying to decide if it is on a used one. When you see an asking price of $9k on car with 20k miles in pristine condition that had a sticker of $33k just two years earlier you're reminded that market forces are tough to overcome, and pretty much nobody cares about the EV revolution.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

cwerdna
Posts: 9274
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:39 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:Sometimes when I'm pumping a whole $17 worth of gas into the Sentra I'm reminded why most people don't think any of this is worth the bother. The value proposition just isn't there on new LEAFs; I'm still trying to decide if it is on a used one. When you see an asking price of $9k on car with 20k miles in pristine condition that had a sticker of $33k just two years earlier you're reminded that market forces are tough to overcome, and pretty much nobody cares about the EV revolution.

Indeed. I have no Sentra, but have to admit then I'm going distances that are out of range for my Leaf w/any (reliable or not) charging at the destinations, I find driving my Prius or any ICEV rather liberating. No need to worry about not running out of fuel, not running the heat, having to go slower, etc.

Your gas prices in FL per http://fuelgaugereport.com/ are currently about 60 cents/gal lower than mine though. On an EV Facebook group recently, someone in a thread commented "EVERYBODY wants EVs". Uhh... right, so I replied with http://www.hybridcars.com/february-2016-dashboard/ showing a Battery Electric Take-Rate of 0.33% for that month with 4,424 BEVs sold in the US that month. I also believed I included http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/03/us ... 6-ytd.html, for comparison of monthly vehicle sales.

So yeah, not many people care. And, if there were no incentives (e.g. tax credits, rebates, carpool lane stickers, etc.), even fewer people would care.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:21 pm

cwerdna wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:Sometimes when I'm pumping a whole $17 worth of gas into the Sentra I'm reminded why most people don't think any of this is worth the bother. The value proposition just isn't there on new LEAFs; I'm still trying to decide if it is on a used one. When you see an asking price of $9k on car with 20k miles in pristine condition that had a sticker of $33k just two years earlier you're reminded that market forces are tough to overcome, and pretty much nobody cares about the EV revolution.

Indeed. I have no Sentra, but have to admit then I'm going distances that are out of range for my Leaf w/any (reliable or not) charging at the destinations, I find driving my Prius or any ICEV rather liberating. No need to worry about not running out of fuel, not running the heat, having to go slower, etc.

Your gas prices in FL per http://fuelgaugereport.com/ are currently about 60 cents/gal lower than mine though. On an EV Facebook group recently, someone in a thread commented "EVERYBODY wants EVs". Uhh... right, so I replied with http://www.hybridcars.com/february-2016-dashboard/ showing a Battery Electric Take-Rate of 0.33% for that month with 4,424 BEVs sold in the US that month. I also believed I included http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/03/us ... 6-ytd.html, for comparison of monthly vehicle sales.

So yeah, not many people care. And, if there were no incentives (e.g. tax credits, rebates, carpool lane stickers, etc.), even fewer people would care.



I drive company cars all the time and I do feel a small sense of "Hell with it" as far as speed, heat, etc. but not sure its a good feeling. Like a drug, the high is awesome, fleeting and hard to maintain. The letdown is hard and always leaves me feeling much worse. The high is simply not worth it
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4669
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:21 pm

My Volt lease is nearing its end, another possible option for me is to buy that out. That will be costlier than picking up a used LEAF though, but perhaps for good reason. The collective wisdom of the market and Bob Lutz seem to have gotten this one right.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

Flyct
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:04 am
Delivery Date: 02 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 307113
Location: Bradenton, Florida, US

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:24 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:The value proposition just isn't there on new LEAFs; I'm still trying to decide if it is on a used one. When you see an asking price of $9k on car with 20k miles in pristine condition that had a sticker of $33k just two years earlier you're reminded that market forces are tough to overcome, and pretty much nobody cares about the EV revolution.


How is the following for value proposition?

I bought a loaded SL W/Premium back in November. It had a MSRP of $38,xxx. Negotiated it down $11,000, $6000 dealer discount and $5000 NMAC cash applied. It cost me $27,000 plus tax. I just filed my 2015 Federal tax return and already received my $8,255 tax refund of which $7,500 was because of my Leaf purchase. Basically my Leaf cost me about $21,000 net after factoring with sales tax and federal tax credit. Not bad for a $38,000 car. Once tax credits are exhausted things will change.

I kick myself for not waiting a little longer because I could have saved another $4,000-$5,000. Right now I can buy a 2015 SL W/premium for $22,950 and still have tax credit of $7,500. These are never registered Nissan owned Leafs. http://www.wayzatanissan.com/used/Nissa ... c6bf6d.htm this Leaf would only cost me net of $16,300 after adding $850 shipping to Florida and $7,500 federal tax credit.
2018 Gun Metallic Grey Leaf SV w/Tech package
2015 Lexus RX450h Hybrid SUV
2019 Ford F-350 Lariat Ultimate Crew Cab Short Bed Diesel
2018 Ford Focus Hatchback Titanium
2017 Grand Design Reflection 337RLS 5th Wheel RV
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Evoforce
Posts: 882
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:02 pm

With more affordable 200+ mile EVs about to land on our laps, for me personally, I would not go back. I have never purchased cars new, but the BOLT looks very tempting... They may be in such high demand that a year old car may still hold a high value.

A Tesla 3 is tempting but when will it make it to market and extras add up fast. Nissan is playing catch-up and who knows now what's in their near future pipeline. I still have plenty of gas vehicles but they don't get driven. My Jeep tows the boat and travel trailer and my Harley with sidecar is fun but neither get used much now. I have thought of converting Harley to hybrid.

My other gassers just sit rotting away in the sun... I have no need for a hybrid, except for a truck, unless a pure electric truck comes out at an affordable price and great range.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

kolmstead
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:07 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 000257
Location: Ridgecrest, California (100 miles east of Bakersfield)

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:32 pm

The Leaf will not have enough range to do my commute as soon as winter hits. I didn't understand when I bought it that it was a disposable car and would be essentially worthless after five years. I bought a a Prius when it became obvious that the Leaf's battery was degrading rapidly, so I'll switch to it this fall and give the Leaf to charity or sell it cheaply. I'll be retiring soon and refuse to buy anything that I can't count on for at least ten years of usefulness.

-Karl

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LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4669
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:06 pm

Flyct wrote:How is the following for value proposition?
...
Basically my Leaf cost me about $21,000 net after factoring with sales tax and federal tax credit. Not bad for a $38,000 car.

Pretty poor I think. The problem is it isn't a $38,000 car, looking beyond its limitations it's probably a $20k car at best that just happens to have a bogus MSRP on the window sticker. In a couple years it will be worth $7k on a trade, $10k retail.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

cwerdna
Posts: 9274
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:28 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:I drive company cars all the time and I do feel a small sense of "Hell with it" as far as speed, heat, etc. but not sure its a good feeling. Like a drug, the high is awesome, fleeting and hard to maintain. The letdown is hard and always leaves me feeling much worse. The high is simply not worth it

I guess to each his/her own.

I gave examples at http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=451322#p451322 and http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=445234#p445234 where even if my current Leaf had CHAdeMO (my previous one did), it adds a lot of inconvenience, time wasted and awkwardness (for lack of a better word), if on a date.

Oh yes, I had no time to type this earlier: fortunately, I primarily charge for free at work. On Fridays/weekends, I sometimes use some free public L2 charging. If I didn't have that and were charging only at home, I'd also have to reconsider since PG&E's electricity is so expensive due to the tiers they set being a joke, high rates and byzantine rate structure (page 1 of http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf and page 2 of http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf). It's too hard to compute costs with E-6 since there's pushing oneself into higher tiers means electricity at all times of day is more $.

If only charged at home, I know I'd be pushed all the way into tiers 3 (25.4 cents/kWh) and 4 (37.442 cents/kWh). I listed the E-1 rates. Using E-1 for simplicity's sake, at 25.4 cents/kWh, if I achieve 3.5 miles/kWh out of the wall (I can only L1 charge at home), that's ~7.26 cents/mile. At 37.442 cents/kWh, that's 10.6 cents/mile.

If gas cost me $3/gal and I only achieved 40 mpg on my Prius, that'd be only 7.5 cents/mile, all anxiety free.

I forgot about another guy at work who I don't see much anymore. He had a '11 or '12 Leaf because of his girlfriend's work or something (company car?). I think she left that job or she had to turn that car in, for whatever reason. So, no more Leaf for him. I believe this is over a year ago. When I do see him, sometimes ask if he's going to get another Leaf or EV. He doesn't seem interested at all or (IIRC) gives some excuse of "no time".

Another guy at my work had a Fiat 500e and would sometimes drive it to work. His wife drives it now and I believe she benefits from HOV stickers and free parking at train stations. So, he didn't technically get rid of it. He's now driving a leased Porsche 911. He was never an EV enthusiast.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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