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Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:55 pm
by GRA
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote: although that doesn't include an allowance for overhead and charging inefficiency

It does, I'm using the EPA MPGe, translated to miles/kWh

It's my understanding that MPGe doesn't include such an allowance. From the wiki:
The EPA MPGe rating shown in the Monroney label is based on the consumption of the on-board energy content stored in the fuel tank or in the vehicle's battery, or any other energy source, and only represents the tank-to-wheel energy consumption. CAFE estimates are based on a well-to-wheel basis and in the case of liquid fuels and electric drive vehicles also account for the energy consumed upstream to produce the fuel or electricity and deliver it to the vehicle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:01 am
by SageBrush
The Wiki is wrong.
you can convince yourself that this is so by comparing the EPA range, MPGe and usable battery capacity.

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:09 am
by IssacZachary
I made my own rule of thumb. If electricity is about 30 cents per kWh, then you're going to spend close to the same in gasoline at $3 per gallon in a similar sized, non-hybrid car. If you spend 15 cents per kWh, it's about half. If you spend around 10 cents like I do, you pay about a third.

A gallon of gasoline has a little more than 30,000kWh in it. So if you pay 10 cents per kWh and $3 per gallon of gasoline you're paying almost the same for the amount of energy. But then you have to compare the 35mpg in an average economy gasoline car to 115mpg-e in an average Leaf. That's about 3 times the difference. That's where I get 30 cents per kWh being equivalent to about $3 per gallon of gasoline. You pay three times as much for the energy content but use three times less.

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:31 pm
by Levenkay
IssacZachary wrote:A gallon of gasoline has a little more than 30,000kWh in it.
If you can get 30 megawatt-hours from a gallon of gas, you should be setting up a for-profit power generating station.

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:57 pm
by GRA
SageBrush wrote:The Wiki is wrong.
you can convince yourself that this is so by comparing the EPA range, MPGe and usable battery capacity.

I'll take your word for it, as it doesn't really matter to me either way. As noted upthread I've done the numbers for my closest public chargers, and they're more expensive than buying gas. The next most 'convenient' L2s are 1.7 miles away, and while they only charge $0.20/kWh, there's also a $1.00 connection fee (which means it's only cheaper than gas if you can charge for a long time), plus a four hour limit and you have to pay for parking during the day, which eliminates any price advantage no matter how much you charge.

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:15 pm
by IssacZachary
Levenkay wrote:
IssacZachary wrote:A gallon of gasoline has a little more than 30,000kWh in it.
If you can get 30 megawatt-hours from a gallon of gas, you should be setting up a for-profit power generating station.

Oops! I meant 30kWh or 30,000Wh.

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:01 pm
by SageBrush
IssacZachary wrote:
Levenkay wrote:
IssacZachary wrote:A gallon of gasoline has a little more than 30,000kWh in it.
If you can get 30 megawatt-hours from a gallon of gas, you should be setting up a for-profit power generating station.

Oops! I meant 30kWh or 30,000Wh.

Per EPA 33,700 Wh

Over 10% more

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:47 pm
by DaveinOlyWA
powersurge wrote:How do you figure that a Leaf will cost $37K for 5 years? OR Camry?? Is that a lease??

If you own, the first 5 years is the most expensive.. then you coast after that...


Not even close. Lease is cheaper for most people.

If after 3 years, I bought my LEAF financing a 2 year loan at 5% interest, my total cost would be $23,569.30 so now I add charging costs for 5 years. Well, the first two years won't add up to $300 due to my planned abuse of NCTC so after that, guessing 2½ cents per mile 15,000 miles a year for 3 years and that is $1125 so now we are approaching $25,000

yeah, sorry but someone is smoking crack

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:47 pm
by SageBrush
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
powersurge wrote:How do you figure that a Leaf will cost $37K for 5 years? OR Camry?? Is that a lease??

If you own, the first 5 years is the most expensive.. then you coast after that...


Not even close. Lease is cheaper for most people.

If after 3 years, I bought my LEAF financing a 2 year loan at 5% interest, my total cost would be $23,569.30 so now I add charging costs for 5 years. Well, the first two years won't add up to $300 due to my planned abuse of NCTC so after that, guessing 2½ cents per mile 15,000 miles a year for 3 years and that is $1125 so now we are approaching $25,000

yeah, sorry but someone is smoking crack

You try to get a lot of mileage out of your anecdote of one.

The figures mentioned are *** TCO ***
They include insurance, fuel, maintenance, repairs, taxes and depreciation.

So using your flogged to exhaustion example, after 5 years you spent
~ $24,000 to buy the car
spent say $5,000 on insurance
have say $5,000 of residual value
----
works out to around $400 a month. For a 100 mile range car. That you spend umpteen hours at charging stations with to save a few dollars on fuel. I appreciate your EV adoration and I share a lot of it, but just the opportunity cost of your charging hours puts you so far out of mainstream that your attempt to make a TCO comparison is silly.


Here is my anecdote:
I sold my Honda Fit to buy our LEAF
I bought it new for $15,500
Sold for $10,000 after 48 months of ownership
25k miles
Fuel: About $1,600
Insurance: $15 a month
Maintenance and Repairs: $0
TCO: $163 a month.
Keep in mind that I shouldered the initial high depreciation rate.
I could have run that car until I died for not much more than the cost of fuel + cheap insurance

For those keeping track, you are paying 2.5x for a hobbled, albeit pleasant to drive car.

Re: people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:40 pm
by DaveinOlyWA
SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
powersurge wrote:How do you figure that a Leaf will cost $37K for 5 years? OR Camry?? Is that a lease??

If you own, the first 5 years is the most expensive.. then you coast after that...


Not even close. Lease is cheaper for most people.

If after 3 years, I bought my LEAF financing a 2 year loan at 5% interest, my total cost would be $23,569.30 so now I add charging costs for 5 years. Well, the first two years won't add up to $300 due to my planned abuse of NCTC so after that, guessing 2½ cents per mile 15,000 miles a year for 3 years and that is $1125 so now we are approaching $25,000

yeah, sorry but someone is smoking crack

You try to get a lot of mileage out of your anecdote of one.

The figures mentioned are *** TCO ***
They include insurance, fuel, maintenance, repairs, taxes and depreciation.

So using your flogged to exhaustion example, after 5 years you spent
~ $24,000 to buy the car
spent say $5,000 on insurance
have say $5,000 of residual value
----
works out to around $400 a month. For a 100 mile range car. That you spend umpteen hours at charging stations with to save a few dollars on fuel. I appreciate your EV adoration and I share a lot of it, but just the opportunity cost of your charging hours puts you so far out of mainstream that your attempt to make a TCO comparison is silly.


Here is my anecdote:
I sold my Honda Fit to buy our LEAF
I bought it new for $15,500
Sold for $10,000 after 48 months of ownership
25k miles
Fuel: About $1,600
Insurance: $15 a month
Maintenance and Repairs: $0
TCO: $163 a month.
Keep in mind that I shouldered the initial high depreciation rate.
I could have run that car until I died for not much more than the cost of fuel + cheap insurance

For those keeping track, you are paying 2.5x for a hobbled, albeit pleasant to drive car.


I guess you "might" get some idiot to believe that half assed TCO