2013 S - 80 or 100%?

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bigbluebear

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2016
Messages
10
Hello leaves,

I just picked up a 2013 S this past month and have had a great time owning it. I do need to be cognizant and plan out my travel plans but it hasn't been too bad. We've even driven over 150 miles during the day. :)

I've been reading and some speculate that the battery in the 2013 was updated and that starting 2014, they got rid of the charge percentage option. For those of you that own a 2013, do you charge up to 100%, 80%, or a mix of the two? I've been doing as some here suggested which is charge to 80% during the week and 100% during the weekends.
 
I generally only charge to 80% but will go to 100% if I anticipate my travels will need the extra range. I've also been using 100% when I have easy access to free public charging, figure I might as well fill it up when the gas is free ;) I guess at a minimum I'd like to charge to 100% to balance the cells at least every couple weeks or so.
 
bigbluebear said:
thanks for the response! It'd be great to do 100% all the time but I'm like you charging to 80% "just in case"

Keeping the charge level between 20% and 80% is best for extending the life of the battery. It does need periodically charged to 100% to balance the cells. Charging to 100% every day is not a problem, as long as you drive the car within a few hours of when charging finishes. Leaving the battery charged at 100% for extended periods of time, especially in hot weather, is not good for the battery.
 
2013 SV, 21,xxx miles. I always fill it up to 100% for a few reasons

1. We always drive it within an hour or 2 after that charge
2. With the 8 year battery warranty I kind of want to wear it down rather than take it easy on it. My thinking is "let's beat this thing up now rather than nurse it along so that it never quite hits the warranty replacement number of bars".
3. Not sure if it matters or not but we only charge with 110v
4. Our Leaf was manufactured very late in 2013 (Dec) so I think we got the new battery formula/chemistry

Currently holding steady at 12 bars
 
Unfortunately, we don't have data on degradation effect of leaving it at 100%. We know it is worse than leaving it at 50% but don't know how much worse. So the advice of others is good - only charge to 100% when you need a full charge and don't let it sit at 100%. We just don't know how much it matters.

Also unfortunately, we don't know how many different battery chemistries there are/were. Did they change sometime in 2013? Or in mid 2014? Or when? Did they change it again and not tell us? Was there a change in 2012 that no one knew about?

From Nissan's perspective, we don't have any need to know and telling us these details would invite more questions. Heaven forbid that we should be informed consumers and know what we are getting. :)

But realistically, if they switch from one maker to another on any part in the car, the buyer really has no need to know. They probably change brake pad vendors, bolt vendors, bumper vendors, etc, more often than we would like to know, for quality, cost and delivery reasons. When you buy replacement parts, you might find part numbers with a "-1" or "-2" suffix and are told that they are the same part. Yea, right, then why did the part number change?.

In an EV, the battery is far more fundamental. Changing battery vendor or battery recipe is a big deal to geeks like us but Nissan isn't trying to appeal to geeks. They are trying to appeal to the average car buyer. To the average consumer, it's a car with an engine (electric motor) and a fuel tank (battery), limited range, low maintenance, and a tax rebate.

I think Nissan would sell many more Leafs if they did market to more technology-aware folks. Give lectures at universities to budding engineers about what's inside and how it works. Exploit social media with technical information as well as marketing. Then watch EV sales soar to the huge community of people just coming out of college, many buying their first car or first new car.

Bob
 
I charge to 100%. I also let it sit that way overnight. Read the stories about people just missing the battery warranty, then decide if you want to "baby" the battery. If nothing else it allows me to never really look at capacity remaining on normal days.
 
I don't charge to any more than I need if the battery pack gets above 80F (use leafspy to check actual temps, doesn't track outside temps directly).

I charge to 80% in the fall/winter/spring when I'm not worried about battery temps.

I charge to 100% only on rare occasions (not worried about 100% just don't need it). Charging to 100% isn't an issue if the battery is cold and you drive away without letting it sit at 100% more than a few hours.
 
Very easy: if you don't hit low battery warning do not charge above 80%.
If you hit very low battery warning it is better to charge more than 80%.

Charge to 80% as soon as you like. Charge to 100% as late as possible.
Best practice would be going on a trip just before you hit 100%. 95% is perfect.

Going below battery warnings will heat battery faster each mile driven.
 
you have to make that decision on your own and looks like you have done the footwork.

now my thoughts on the subject, none of which is based in scientific fact, only my real observations and suppositions.

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2016/11/100-or-80.html
 
Ok, up front, my leaf wont be here till wednesday. What I do have is 25+ years of electric RC flying experience and countless charging hours of pretty much every battery type. 100% should never hurt your battery unless you are not going to be driving the thing for like a month or two. Even then it depends a lot on the batteries themselves. These cars are mass produced so guess what that means, It means lots and lots of safety features because there is nothing worse than a customers battery exploding.

So without knowing the safety parameters that nissan has set this should be a rule of thumb. You should be able to run your battery down to 0 and fully charge it to 100% without any degradation what so ever and here is why. Nissan had to have set a "limit" on both the 0% and 100% extremes and there should be a nice safety buffer there that prevents damage especially since this is a mass produced car, Overcharging and over discharging can cause explosions. The main damage to batteries is heat since from what I read there is no real thermal management system other than air cooled, then environment temps would play heavily in the degradation of the battery especially during the charging and discharging phases. Extreme cold can damage as well but its usually more about reducing its ability to release that stored energy. Again, not a scientist here just going off my years of experience dealing with batteries. Frankly the thing I see that hurts the leaf the most if the lack of a real thermal control system. Not charging to 100% or running it down to 0. Again we dont how cushioned or how slim the margins are but I would bet heavily on cushioned due to the inherent dangers of lithium going boom in your mass produced device. Just look at the galaxy note 7.

Anyways, just my opinion from brand new used leaf owner.
 
I chose the car based on my use case of expecting to just about always use less than 80% of nominal capacity*, and daily use quite a bit lower**. I'll also take steps to avoid overheating while charging along the lines that dhanson mentioned.

* 10 -90% SOC range
**30 - 70% SOC range
 
Doomsday, I see a couple of problems with your generally reasonable arguments.

* The risk from storage at 100% isn't explosion, just degradation. The Leaf uses a fairly stable lithium chemistry. The fact that the first generation batteries lose capacity so fast argues in favor of degradation for any reason being a concern. Storage at 100% certainly isn't #1 on the list of contributing factors, but any factor that can be eliminated should be, IMO.

* There should be a large buffer at the top and bottom of the battery, but Nissan was dealing with a car with barely adequate range, and one that had been sold by dealers as having a "100 mile range." So they were pressured to make those buffers as small as possible.
 
Doomsday said:
Ok, up front, my leaf wont be here till wednesday. What I do have is 25+ years of electric RC flying experience and countless charging hours of pretty much every battery type. 100% should never hurt your battery unless you are not going to be driving the thing for like a month or two. Even then it depends a lot on the batteries themselves. These cars are mass produced so guess what that means, It means lots and lots of safety features because there is nothing worse than a customers battery exploding.

So without knowing the safety parameters that nissan has set this should be a rule of thumb. You should be able to run your battery down to 0 and fully charge it to 100% without any degradation what so ever and here is why. Nissan had to have set a "limit" on both the 0% and 100% extremes and there should be a nice safety buffer there that prevents damage especially since this is a mass produced car, Overcharging and over discharging can cause explosions. The main damage to batteries is heat since from what I read there is no real thermal management system other than air cooled, then environment temps would play heavily in the degradation of the battery especially during the charging and discharging phases. Extreme cold can damage as well but its usually more about reducing its ability to release that stored energy. Again, not a scientist here just going off my years of experience dealing with batteries. Frankly the thing I see that hurts the leaf the most if the lack of a real thermal control system. Not charging to 100% or running it down to 0. Again we dont how cushioned or how slim the margins are but I would bet heavily on cushioned due to the inherent dangers of lithium going boom in your mass produced device. Just look at the galaxy note 7.

Anyways, just my opinion from brand new used leaf owner.

Since it fits into my use profile, I was glad to read your post.
I have a 2014 Leaf S, 24k miles and 12 bars. I usually drive about 40 miles a day, short errands around town, with a weekly 40 mile round trip freeway run at about 70 mph. When I charge, I charge to 100% overnight, though I don't bother plugging it in if the remaining charge is over 80%. Most times the SOC is down to about 50% when I do plug in, though I do rarely run it down to less than 20%.
II didn't buy this car to baby it, or to abuse it either. I bought it to replace a VW diesel, and with the intent to drive it whenever and wherever I need to, not to be a slave to someone else's idea of optimal battery usage.
Nissan is a big company that is serious about the coming electric car revolution, and would not have marketed a car that can only be optimally utilized by the 'expert' few.
 
Going on three years for my 2013S and I doubt if I charged to a100% more than 20 times - as a "local" car, I just don't need the miles. The research I read about lithium battery chemistry clearly points to heat as the number one degrader and leaving the battery at full charge for extended perionds close behind, as many others have pointed out, so routinely charging to 80% is desirable.

Luckily for my Leaf, it's garaged where the temp during the summer is not more than 85 degrees and the weather in CT is not extremely hot for extended periods during the summer, so maybe I'm in a battery friendly environment.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Doomsday, I see a couple of problems with your generally reasonable arguments.

* The risk from storage at 100% isn't explosion, just degradation. The Leaf uses a fairly stable lithium chemistry. The fact that the first generation batteries lose capacity so fast argues in favor of degradation for any reason being a concern. Storage at 100% certainly isn't #1 on the list of contributing factors, but any factor that can be eliminated should be, IMO.

* There should be a large buffer at the top and bottom of the battery, but Nissan was dealing with a car with barely adequate range, and one that had been sold by dealers as having a "100 mile range." So they were pressured to make those buffers as small as possible.

Except I see arguments saying that leaving it at 100% for just a few hours causes degradation and it doesnt. It takes a long time for that to set in. In fact, heat plays no role in this function because there is no charge going into it.

I dont think those buffers are small, They cant be for one main reason, It only takes 1 battery exploding from charging or discharging to ruin a company, The reason there was so much degradation in gen 1 batteries is simple, Heat and bad batteries. I suspect changes were also made to the battery compartment to facilitate better airflow as well. Now its possible that the charging circut wasnt doing cell balancing properly that could have helped towards the degradation as well but again, its pretty much all heat causing it, not sitting for a few days at 100%. Again, look at the damage that has happened to samsung for their phones exploding. Estimates are they lost in the billions and not just from recalls but from sales losses afterwards.
 
I'm surprised nobody picked up on this:

lionsfan54 said:
2013 SV, 21,xxx miles. I always fill it up to 100% for a few reasons

1. We always drive it within an hour or 2 after that charge
2. With the 8 year battery warranty I kind of want to wear it down rather than take it easy on it. My thinking is "let's beat this thing up now rather than nurse it along so that it never quite hits the warranty replacement number of bars".
3. Not sure if it matters or not but we only charge with 110v
4. Our Leaf was manufactured very late in 2013 (Dec) so I think we got the new battery formula/chemistry

Currently holding steady at 12 bars

The 8 year/100k mile warranty is only for defects in workmanship. It does NOT cover premature degradation; that warranty is only 5 years/60k miles.

For the OP: I charged my car primarily at 80% because above say 95% I have no regen braking. That's important to me as I live in a hilly area and my drive away from home is almost always in the downhill direction. Even with 4 wheel disc brakes, friction-only braking isn't as good as when regen is doing much if not most of the work.
 
RonDawg said:
I'm surprised nobody picked up on this:

lionsfan54 said:
2013 SV, 21,xxx miles. I always fill it up to 100% for a few reasons

1. We always drive it within an hour or 2 after that charge
2. With the 8 year battery warranty I kind of want to wear it down rather than take it easy on it. My thinking is "let's beat this thing up now rather than nurse it along so that it never quite hits the warranty replacement number of bars".
3. Not sure if it matters or not but we only charge with 110v
4. Our Leaf was manufactured very late in 2013 (Dec) so I think we got the new battery formula/chemistry

Currently holding steady at 12 bars

The 8 year/100k mile warranty is only for defects in workmanship. It does NOT cover premature degradation; that warranty is only 5 years/60k miles.

For the OP: I charged my car primarily at 80% because above say 95% I have no regen braking. That's important to me as I live in a hilly area and my drive away from home is almost always in the downhill direction. Even with 4 wheel disc brakes, friction-only braking isn't as good as when regen is doing much if not most of the work.


Now thats a good reason not to go to 100% Saves you a few pennies in electric grid fees and instead of engine breaking just to be slowing down, now you have a good reason for it in regen.
 
RonDawg said:
The 8 year/100k mile warranty is only for defects in workmanship. It does NOT cover premature degradation; that warranty is only 5 years/60k miles.

From Nissan's site...

"the Nissan LEAF® Lithium-ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 96 months or 100,000 miles"
 
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