nbeker
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:38 am
Delivery Date: 08 Sep 2017

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:42 am

"Your degradation is right about what Nissan expected. Why do you think the warranty period was chosen to be 5 years ?
Hopefully you were smart enough to buy the car cheap."

If Nissan expected only 5 years of battery life why they said nothing about this when they sale this car to us??? We paid a full coverage warranty because the sales person said it will cover everything Included battery for 7 years and 100000 miles.When we come with this problem they said this warranty is not cover capacity lost just cover battery defects. In my opinion, this battery is a deffect and should be cover by Nissan. Do I have to be an expert in this car to understand all aspects of degradation before to buy because Nissan lied to customer with no providing full information for the battery degradation?

It was not cheap. This price is not right because now we have to pay for the battery. We could buy a new car instead of used car if they provided the full information for the battery capacity degradation. There is no sense to buy a used car and pay $5000$ for the battery exchange.

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davewill
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Location: San Diego, CA, US

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:59 am

nbeker wrote:... Do I have to be an expert in this car to understand all aspects of degradation before to buy...

Expert, no, but you have to research your vehicles, any vehicle, before you buy them. You could have found out about all of this here before you bought. If you had come here when they made you the 1/3 offer, you would have gotten advice to take it before it went away.

Is Nissan handling this well? No, they aren't, but yelling about it to us isn't going to help.
2014 Rav4 EV, Blizzard Pearl White
2011 LEAF SL w/QC, Blue Ocean, returned at end of lease

nbeker
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:38 am
Delivery Date: 08 Sep 2017

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:42 am

davewill wrote:
nbeker wrote:... Do I have to be an expert in this car to understand all aspects of degradation before to buy...

Expert, no, but you have to research your vehicles, any vehicle, before you buy them. You could have found out about all of this here before you bought. If you had come here when they made you the 1/3 offer, you would have gotten advice to take it before it went away.

Is Nissan handling this well? No, they aren't, but yelling about it to us isn't going to help.


I am not agree I have to do research on electrical car before buying because two years ago there was no much info for Nissan Leaf battery problems. I still believe this is Nissan responsibility to provide all info for the possible problems with this car. If Nissan knows for this problem and does not inform me as a customer, this is mean Nissan lies. If Nissan did not know for this barrety problem and therefore did not provide all info, this is mean Nissan has no professional engineers and experts.

I am not yelling to you or somebody else.English is my second language,sorry if you think I am yelling. I see no way to solve this problem now.

I only want other buyers like me think twice before making any deal with Nissan.

Evoforce
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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:58 pm

It is sad... In every other way the Leaf is a great car. I thought Nissan decided to do the honorable thing and help to pay a percentage of replacement cost on out of warranty vehicles. They did briefly, but have sadly pulled the rug out and no longer help replace what I call a sub standard battery pack design.

They still deny that they have a poorly designed pack and are still selling it that way even with the upcoming 2018 model. Will they finally fix the 2019 and correct the battery design flaws? Will they continue to use us as their great failed battery experiment without compensation?

Yes, hindsight is 20/20 but they should have provided a TMS and certainly before now. It is OK to search, and continue to do research, for the holy grail in their quest for a non TMS battery, but not at customers expense. If their Engineering/Experimental Department wants to continue to find a non TMS solution behind the curtain, that's fine. Just sell us cars with TMS, that has proven to work on other brands, for now.

Nissan has lost the confidence of many of it's customers. Also the public at large, may perceive that all electric vehicles have the same Achilles heel and not purchase any brand of electric vehicle. We really love our 2 Nissan Leafs, just not the rapid battery degradation and loss of resale value (most likely) because of it.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

SageBrush
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:52 pm

"If Nissan expected only 5 years of battery life why they said nothing about this when they sale this car to us???"

For the same reason that some ICE manufacturers do not tell you that some transmissions are engineered to last past the warranty period ... but not much more. For the same reasons that American cars became expensive cars to repair after about 100k miles, but no dealership ever told a prospective owner so. For the same reason that many German brands depreciated horribly once the new car warranty expires but it is surely not mentioned by a salesperson.

Degradation and defect are very different things, and you are confusing the two. You are banging your head against a brick wall here.
The LEAF battery is poor. I know it, now you know it too. But it is not a defect issue, and you are past warranty.

So, where do you stand ? You are either going to manage with your current battery, buy a replacement, or trash the car and buy something else. If the battery replacement range works for you for the next 5 years or so, it is the least expensive alternative. If you give up the ranting, perhaps Nissan will once again offer a 30% discount. Just grow up and act civil. And if needed, apologize for past behavior.
And this time do your homework and get in writing the warranty provisions of the replacement battery before you decide to purchase.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

cwerdna
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:11 pm

nbeker wrote:If Nissan expected only 5 years of battery life why they said nothing about this when they sale this car to us???

You bought from a Nissan dealer. In the US (I can only assume you are from the mention of the 877 number and usage of $ since you didn't update your info to include your location), in most states, automakers cannot own dealerships due to state franchise laws. Google for tesla franchise laws to get an idea of Tesla's legal battles.

As for 5 years or battery life or whatever, your battery still works. Whether or not it is still suitable for your use cases depends on its condition and number of miles of range autonomy required on a single charge for how that person drives. My commute's under 13 miles each way and I have free charging at work. If I fully charged at home and a work, I could be down 11 bars and still make my commute w/my Leaf.

Right now my 5/2013 built '13 Leaf still has all 12 bars but is getting close to losing 1, from Leaf Spy stats.
nbeker wrote: We paid a full coverage warranty because the sales person said it will cover everything Included battery for 7 years and 100000 miles.When we come with this problem they said this warranty is not cover capacity lost just cover battery defects.

What did the warranty say? If it didn't say it covered gradual capacity loss or capacity loss at all, the onus was on you to read it and understand what you were buying. It's not the 1st time a salesman has made statements (sometimes misleading or incorrect) to make a sale.
nbeker wrote: In my opinion, this battery is a deffect and should be cover by Nissan. Do I have to be an expert in this car to understand all aspects of degradation before to buy because Nissan lied to customer with no providing full information for the battery degradation?

Read the terms of the factory 8 year/100K battery defects warranty in the warranty booklet (also found at https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf) and whatever extended warranty you may have bought. Also see viewtopic.php?t=13192.

Again, it's highly unlikely the dealership you bought from was owned by Nissan, so Nissan didn't lie, an independently owned dealership person may have lied to you.

Nissan, the company unfortunately has not been forthcoming in general about battery degradation on Leafs. As I've pointed out at viewtopic.php?f=30&t=22446&p=469608&hilit=perry+20+30#p469608 and elsewhere, Mark Perry (who retired in late 2012 from Nissan) asserted in March 2012 that after 10 years, you'll have about 70 to 80% capacity remaining which turns out be WAY off for the batteries of the time.

There were other claims, like viewtopic.php?p=359497.
nbeker wrote:I am not agree I have to do research on electrical car before buying because two years ago there was no much info for Nissan Leaf battery problems.

Sure there was, from a degradation point of view.

TonyWilliams ran a range test in September 2012: https://web.archive.org/web/20130115102 ... p?p=228326. There were 1 to 4 capacity bar losers when the Leaf had only been out ~21 months. Blue494 was the worst at 4 bars down. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802 was started in in May 2012 and grew to over 700 pages.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694 has a summary and timeline. viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10257 was from Oct 2012. There also a Phoenix townhall from Jan 2013 in the page 2 summary page.

People have been talking about capacity loss since May 2012, if not earlier.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14102 was started to discuss battery replacements in 2013. Looks like the earliest I can find in there is a replacement in July 2013: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13549&p=313358#p313358.

Also, YEARS ago, Stoaty + some other put together an aging model based upon what they knew of the '11 and '12 Leaf batteries of the time. It's at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Batt ... ging_Model. TickTock posted about his meeting w/a Nissan engineer in 2012 and the graph he reconstructed from memory at viewtopic.php?p=230478#p230478 and viewtopic.php?p=230575#p230575.
Last edited by cwerdna on Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

powersurge
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Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:11 am

Nissan does give service to their products that are in warrantee fpr a new car.

What you did was buy a USED car. Nissan may have responsibilities for their cars, but not necessarily for YOUR car. It is like if a company sells you a cell phone (with a sealed internal battery) at full price. If after a few years you buy the phone used from a friend, they have no responsibility to you because "who knows" what has been done to that product.

Unfortunate, but used sales are legally "CAVEAT EMPTOR", or you own it.

edatoakrun
Posts: 4716
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Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:18 pm

Video of Nissan's "Out-of-Warranty" support manager, in-training:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... L45pVdsRvE
no condition is permanent

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abasile
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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:15 pm

I bought a new car from Nissan, back in April 2011, and there remains an eight year, 100K mile warranty on the functioning of the battery pack. At about 71,500 odometer miles as of today, the fact is that the usability of the car is severely compromised. My "reward" for caring for the battery pack, mainly by keeping it out of the heat, is to learn via the experience of other forum posters that I'm on my own.

When the car loses the fourth capacity bar, possibly sometime next year, I will consider pushing for warranty relief. Regenerative braking is very, very limited, which would now constitute a safety hazard if I were to attempt to drive the car "normally" down our mountain, with a reasonable battery temperature (four or five temp bars) to the nearest Nissan dealer. For this very reason, it's been almost a year since I last drove our LEAF all the way down the mountain, and when I did so, I had to make multiple stops to let the brakes cool off. Any reasonable person should be able to agree that the car has a defective and not fully functional battery system.

powersurge wrote:Nissan does give service to their products that are in warrantee fpr a new car.

What you did was buy a USED car. Nissan may have responsibilities for their cars, but not necessarily for YOUR car. It is like if a company sells you a cell phone (with a sealed internal battery) at full price. If after a few years you buy the phone used from a friend, they have no responsibility to you because "who knows" what has been done to that product.

Unfortunate, but used sales are legally "CAVEAT EMPTOR", or you own it.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

edatoakrun
Posts: 4716
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:01 am

abasile wrote:...When the car loses the fourth capacity bar, possibly sometime next year, I will consider pushing for warranty relief...

Why wait for the fourth capacity bar to drop, and the non-existent warranty?

abasile wrote:...Regenerative braking is very, very limited, which would now constitute a safety hazard if I were to attempt to drive the car "normally" down our mountain, with a reasonable battery temperature (four or five temp bars) to the nearest Nissan dealer. For this very reason, it's been almost a year since I last drove our LEAF all the way down the mountain, and when I did so, I had to make multiple stops to let the brakes cool off. Any reasonable person should be able to agree that the car has a defective and not fully functional battery system...

If that statement is correct, it sounds to me like your LEAF had a defect in its design, which Nissan had a duty to disclose to you at the time of sale, and it certainly sounds like you consider this defect to be causing you a major problem today.

So why are you waiting for the fourth idiot bar to drop?
no condition is permanent

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