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OrientExpress
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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:52 pm

That is an interesting argument Counselor. I'd be interested to see your case law basis.
2018 LEAF SL
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50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

SageBrush
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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:47 pm

abasile wrote:That said, with four or five temperature bars, our LEAF's regen is now poor even at relatively low SOCs. On a long downgrade, the LEAF also tends to limit sustained regen. So even if I were to start the 4,900' descent with 15 kW of regen available on a good day, there'd be practically no regen available after maybe 2000' of elevation loss.

Are you sure about that ?
4900 feet is about 6 - 7 kWh of potential energy
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
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2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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abasile
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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:37 pm

SageBrush wrote:
abasile wrote:That said, with four or five temperature bars, our LEAF's regen is now poor even at relatively low SOCs. On a long downgrade, the LEAF also tends to limit sustained regen. So even if I were to start the 4,900' descent with 15 kW of regen available on a good day, there'd be practically no regen available after maybe 2000' of elevation loss.

Are you sure about that ?
4900 feet is about 6 - 7 kWh of potential energy

I know, it shouldn't be that way, as there ought to be plenty of room for a few kWh or so if the LEAF is charged to about 50%. (Remember that some of that potential energy is lost to friction, aero drag, and drivetrain losses.) But that's been my experience. At least it was my experience until last year when we got another EV which we use for all of our trips off the mountain, and I have no reason to believe the LEAF gets better with age!

Basically, to leave the mountain with the LEAF last year, we were having to make multiple stops on the way down. Not only did these stops allow the friction brakes to cool, they gave the BMS time to "recover" and give some regen back.

Again, the LEAF seems to limit regen power much more than it limits DC fast charging. This is certainly not what I would have expected when we bought the LEAF. In fact, one of the selling points was that we'd be able to recapture a significant amount of energy when descending the mountain.

It's also strange to me that, on a cold or mostly full battery, the LEAF seems to completely shut down regen even if the resistive heater is running full blast and consuming 6 kW. Believe me, in years past, I drove the LEAF down and up our mountain literally hundreds of times (who's the fool here - me I guess), and I'm all too familiar with the regen issues!
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

SageBrush
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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:52 pm

Interesting. That is unexpected.
What sustained charge rates during QC can the LEAF accept ?

Is your traction battery actually hitting such high temperatures that it goes into a turtle-ish mode ?
If so, you definitely have a defect issue, and not simply a side-effect of degradation.

Nissan will probably try to tell you it is a matter of expected degradation, but they will be wrong.
Get your case documented before the 8/80 defect warranty lapses, and fight until you get the defect resolved.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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RegGuheert
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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:38 pm

SageBrush wrote:Interesting. That is unexpected.
What sustained charge rates during QC can the LEAF accept ?
Our MY2011 LEAF has lost three capacity bars and can charge at a rate of 25 kW up to about 70% SOC, yet the regen operates just as abasile describes. This evening I saw the regen put out about 10 kW when the car was traveling at about 40 MPH at the top of the mountain, but the power level dropped to about 5 kW after the car had sped up to 65 MPH. (On this mountain, about 20 kW is required to maintain a constant speed. Our 15.5-year-old Honda Civic Hybrid with its original battery (that has a BMS which has also been reprogrammed after a lawsuit) does a better job holding its speed on this mountain than the LEAF.
SageBrush wrote:Is your traction battery actually hitting such high temperatures that it goes into a turtle-ish mode ?
No, the issues abasile describes are more significant when the battery is cold.
SageBrush wrote:Nissan will probably try to tell you it is a matter of expected degradation, but they will be wrong.
Get your case documented before the 8/80 defect warranty lapses, and fight until you get the defect resolved.
Nah. They ALL work this way after the P3227 reprogramming. They are not likely to replace a battery that is working just like all other degraded batteries.

FWIW, the regen situation is much better in summertime. Not like when it was new (and before the reprogramming), but still much better than when it is cold.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
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GerryAZ
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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:51 pm

The original 2011 and 2012 batteries from Japan have higher internal resistance after some degradation than the 2015 lizard batteries. The internal resistance also increases as battery temperature decreases. I saw the regeneration drop significantly on my 2011 as the ambient temperatures cooled off in the fall of 2012 (long before the P3227 software update was issued) when it had 10 capacity bars. I saw no change to regeneation when the P3227 software update was performed as part of the testing after the car was down to 8 capacity bars in the summer of 2013. Regeneration was restored when the battery was replaced in October of 2013, but available regeneration was already dropping by the time the car met its demise in January 2015. Those who claim the P3227 software update significantly reduced regeneration probably did not have enough degradation to notice the reduced regeneration as the weather cooled in the fall of 2012. The software update on most cars was done during the spring and summer of 2013. The loss of regeneration was heavily discussed on the forum during fall and winter of 2013 after cars in mild climates had enough battery deterioration to make it noticeable.

In contrast, my 2015 has significant regeneration available within a mile or two after leaving the house with a full charge (even with over 50,000 miles on the original battery).
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

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abasile
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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:46 pm

My experience has matched that of RegGuheert. Also, I'm personally not sure if the P3227 update affected our LEAF's regen, as our battery pack was still in relatively good shape then.

I'll admit to feeling torn right now. If getting "relief" could be as simple as initiating a warranty claim with Nissan, then escalating to BBB if Nissan denies the claim, then maybe it'd be worthwhile. On the other hand, it's hard to be interested in investing a significant number of hours and emotional energy on what appears to be an uphill battle, when I could be spending that energy (or less) on earning (or gaining from good investment choices) more than the $5k value of a new battery pack.

Arguably it could be worth taking action out of principle, but Nissan has already proven itself to be a heartless corporation on this matter, as they should have simply given every early LEAF owner a coupon for a new battery pack. The world has mostly forgotten about the 2011-2012 LEAF, Nissan has gotten its black eye and resale values have been terrible, and most of us have moved on (the LEAF is no longer our primary car like it was for years).

One might also argue that the issue of having insufficient regen on a mountain descent could prove fatal to a hapless LEAF driver, and others on the road, one day. If I could truly help prevent that, then that would justify my taking action. At the same time, there are probably very few people who'll be (a) driving degraded LEAFs up and down big mountains, and (b) have no awareness of the need for engine braking, regen, or keeping the friction brakes from overheating, so this seems unlikely.

More than anything, this is Nissan's loss for not making things right with owners like us, as I cannot in good conscience recommend that anyone buy a new Nissan vehicle without first making them aware of our experience. Still, we'll continue to get whatever use we can out of our 2011 LEAF, and we do hope for the best for new LEAF owners and applaud their decision to drive electric.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:46 am

GerryAZ wrote:Those who claim the P3227 software update significantly reduced regeneration probably did not have enough degradation to notice the reduced regeneration as the weather cooled in the fall of 2012.

No, I noticed this immediately after the P3227 update, my car was flashed in July '13. TomT and DaveinOlyWA also noticed, too. P3227 definitely reduced the amount of available regen.
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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:38 am

GerryAZ wrote:The original 2011 and 2012 batteries from Japan have higher internal resistance after some degradation than the 2015 lizard batteries. The internal resistance also increases as battery temperature decreases. I saw the regeneration drop significantly on my 2011 as the ambient temperatures cooled off in the fall of 2012 (long before the P3227 software update was issued) when it had 10 capacity bars. I saw no change to regeneation when the P3227 software update was performed as part of the testing after the car was down to 8 capacity bars in the summer of 2013. Regeneration was restored when the battery was replaced in October of 2013, but available regeneration was already dropping by the time the car met its demise in January 2015. Those who claim the P3227 software update significantly reduced regeneration probably did not have enough degradation to notice the reduced regeneration as the weather cooled in the fall of 2012. The software update on most cars was done during the spring and summer of 2013. The loss of regeneration was heavily discussed on the forum during fall and winter of 2013 after cars in mild climates had enough battery deterioration to make it noticeable.

In contrast, my 2015 has significant regeneration available within a mile or two after leaving the house with a full charge (even with over 50,000 miles on the original battery).


this is not my experience. I have several hills where I would coast in neutral to 70+ mph then shift to drive and regen down the hill. before the update, I would easily light up all 4 regen circles for more than 30 seconds. After the flash, I would be lucky if I could light up all 4 circles for 10 seconds. The SOC or temps seemed to have no effect. I have a video of my car at about 50% SOC and only 2 regen circles available and no it wasn't that cold. In fact, its almost never that cold where I live.

It continued for all situations. before i could vary the regen from full to any number of circles quite easily. afterwards, my ability to manipulate the circles was greatly reduced.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
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GerryAZ
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Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:37 am

drees wrote:
GerryAZ wrote:Those who claim the P3227 software update significantly reduced regeneration probably did not have enough degradation to notice the reduced regeneration as the weather cooled in the fall of 2012.

No, I noticed this immediately after the P3227 update, my car was flashed in July '13. TomT and DaveinOlyWA also noticed, too. P3227 definitely reduced the amount of available regen.


OK, I stand corrected. Since my battery was down to 8 capacity bars before the software update and I had already lost most regeneration, I did not see a change. I seemed to have normal regeneration with the replacement battery (installed in October 2013) until it started to deteriorate and temperatures dropped in the fall of 2014. One thing the software update did was greatly improve the accuracy of the dashboard instrumentation and data on the CAN bus available through LEAF Spy. I would sometimes see the battery charge bars drop much faster than normal on my way to work (slightly downhill) and see commensurately low SOC (and low "GID" numbers) with LEAF Spy. When that happened, I would get to work with only 3 charge bars left and still make it home without stopping to charge (9 bars going downhill to work and remaining 3 bars to return home). The Gids and SOC would drop to some point and then stay steady for a while and then start dropping again. This instrumentation behavior never happened after the software update.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

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