NissanClient73
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:47 am
Delivery Date: 10 Apr 2018
Leaf Number: 016549

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:57 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Valdemar wrote: That said, losing 4 bars after 7 years in a warm climate isn't all that unreasonable, if it happened to me (it didn't) I'd certainly accept it as a fairly good outcome of a risky experiment being an early EV adopter.

You have a sunny disposition :D

I disagree and would feel shafted by Nissan. Oddly enough though, the rational side of me would consider buying a replacement battery if I thought it would serve me another 6-7 years. I just don't think I could stomach the idea of sending money Nissan's way even though I doubt they are profiting on the sale.


We are not going to spend more money on this car. Our older son can drive it for a couple more years until
he goes to college and then the younger one will have it for another couple of years. There is enough battery capacity for cruising around the house.

I am considering getting Tesla Model 3 for myself.
Last edited by NissanClient73 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Valdemar
Posts: 2507
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:59 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Valdemar wrote: That said, losing 4 bars after 7 years in a warm climate isn't all that unreasonable, if it happened to me (it didn't) I'd certainly accept it as a fairly good outcome of a risky experiment being an early EV adopter.

You have a sunny disposition :D

I disagree and would feel shafted by Nissan. Oddly enough though, the rational side of me would consider buying a replacement battery if I thought it would serve me another 6-7 years. I just don't think I could stomach the idea of sending money Nissan's way even though I doubt they are profiting on the sale.

A lot of this is perception of how one is being treated. If Nissan had offered an insurance plan back in 2011 to the tune of $40 a month to keep the LEAF battery at 70% or greater for 12 years, I'll guess that people would have happily agreed and Nissan would not be excrement. The final consumer costs of course would be similar.


Like I said it didn't happen and I largely share your feelings based on my own experience. I'm also now a skeptic EVs will become an economically viable transportation technology in the observable future, unless of course oil prices shoot through the roof.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
53.92AHr, SOH 84.5%, 140k miles

9kW Solar

SageBrush
Posts: 2918
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:06 pm

Valdemar wrote:I'm also now a skeptic EVs will become an economically viable transportation technology in the observable future, unless of course oil prices shoot through the roof.

No doubt about it, Nissan has not (and is not) doing the EV movement any favors.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 2918
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:33 pm

NissanClient73 wrote:I am considering getting Tesla Model 3 for myself.

Much better choice in car, and Tesla is a much, much better company. I'll say Toyota level.

That said, Tesla repairs on their earlier models have been outrageously expensive so if you are cost sensitive you may want to wait until there are 3rd party repairs and a healthy used/aftermarket parts market. I'm confident that Tesla repairs will eventually come down in price to other mainstream cars ... but it has not happened yet.

I also own a Toyota Prius Prime. It does not satisfy my urge for a BEV but it otherwise is a fantastic car, outstanding value, and is backed by Toyota. It runs in EV around town and as an HV for my work commute. Fuel economy is stellar.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 8402
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:32 pm

NissanClient73 wrote:This is not the only issue the car has. It never went 100 miles on full battery charge, as advertised.

Out of curiosity, where were you seeing that 100 miles? Yes yes, Nissan has talked about 100+ miles on the LA4 cycle but the official EPA range rating on the '11 to '12 Leaf was 73 miles.

A 24 kWh Leaf on a new battery will certainly do 100+ miles on a single charge. viewtopic.php?p=296190#p296190 from viewtopic.php?t=7022 has achieved 188 miles on a charge. https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/201 ... r-end.html achieved 132.0 miles until dead on a charge at 35 mph.

That said, I started a thread long ago https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13264 to post instances of shame were folks were still touting "100 miles" of range on a 24 kWh Leaf, which is NOT a realistic number to tell a typical ICEV driver. I even started this poll where 0 people answered that 100 miles was the "correct" value to tell people: viewtopic.php?t=11201.

On this note, http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=261746#p261746 (and my reply that followed) was to me an example of some incorrect cultural problems within Nissan. Sounds like those folks within Nissan corporate Japan felt that with the '11 and '12 Leaf, they delivered a "100 mile" vehicle. :roll:
NissanClient73 wrote:The rate of battery degradation was also falsely advertised.

Yes.
NissanClient73 wrote:I truly believe that Nissan screwed up their first clients. We would never pay 33K for a vehicle that could only go 40 miles range fully charged after 5 years of use.

Your car is a 4 bar loser. You are calling it quits FAR too early or driving way too fast or driving in other ways or with equipment that is inefficient (e.g. non-low rolling resistance tires, running the heater all the time, low air pressure, etc.). TonyWilliams's range tests result at https://web.archive.org/web/20160113132 ... p?p=228326 has a bar loser Blue494 achieving over 59 miles at 100 km/h (~62 mph).

If you want help w/range complaints, please start another thread, answering viewtopic.php?p=275421#p275421.

If you aren't using a tool like Leaf Spy or LeafDD (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12561) to read battery gids along w/some their helpful tools, you should. You will be able to run your battery much closer to empty with a lot less anxiety instead of likely calling it quits too early.
NissanClient73 wrote:Some people wondered why we waited that long? Nissan assured us that we have time till 2019 to replace the battery.

Who is the party in the boldface? A dealer employee (e.g. sales critter, F&I guy, etc.)? I don't think you ever answered my question: Do you have it in WRITING that your extended warranty extends the battery capacity warranty? If so, by how long?

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

NissanClient73
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:47 am
Delivery Date: 10 Apr 2018
Leaf Number: 016549

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:09 am

cwerdna wrote:Out of curiosity, where were you seeing that 100 miles? Yes yes, Nissan has talked about 100+ miles on the LA4 cycle but the official EPA range rating on the '11 to '12 Leaf was 73 miles.


This is from Nissan ad for 2011/2012 Leaf. Google it.

MPGe: 106 city / 92 highway
Battery charge time: 21h at 110V, 4h at 220V, 0.5h at 440V
Battery: 24 kWh 360 V lithium-ion

cwerdna wrote:Who is the party in the boldface? A dealer employee (e.g. sales critter, F&I guy, etc.)? I don't think you ever answered my question: Do you have it in WRITING that your extended warranty extends the battery capacity warranty? If so, by how long?


I am sorry, I can’t provide you neither agents ID number nor my case number opened by that person.
However, the person who told me that we have time till 2019 to replace a battery was a Leaf specialist that answered the 1-877-664-2738.

It is documented, because the specialist that closed out case explained that that the case should not have been opened. Perhaps, the person who opened the case is already fired.

I have not had a chance to visit the links provided in your post.

cwerdna
Posts: 8402
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:31 am

NissanClient73 wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Out of curiosity, where were you seeing that 100 miles? Yes yes, Nissan has talked about 100+ miles on the LA4 cycle but the official EPA range rating on the '11 to '12 Leaf was 73 miles.


This is from Nissan ad for 2011/2012 Leaf. Google it.

MPGe: 106 city / 92 highway

MPGe is NOT the range on a full charge. It is a mostly useless figure for those EV shopping.

You can see those same useless figures at https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... s&id=30979 including "73 miles Total Range".

Per https://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/electri ... ew-label#2
For those vehicles that do not use liquid fuels--such as electric vehicles, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles operating on electricity, and compressed natural gas vehicles-- the labels display miles per gallon of gasoline-equivalent (MPGe). Think of this as being similar to MPG, but instead of presenting miles per gallon of the vehicle’s fuel type, it represents the number of miles the vehicle can go using a quantity of fuel with the same energy content as a gallon of gasoline. This allows a reasonable comparison between vehicles using different fuels. For example, you can use MPGe to compare a compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicle with a gasoline vehicle; even though CNG is not dispensed or burned in actual gallons.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/gvg/learn-more-technology.htm also describes MPGe, amongst many other pages.
MPG values shown on the tire are miles per gallon of gasoline equivalent (MPGe). Non-liquid fuels, like electricity and hydrogen, are not measured in gallons, so using conversion factors allows them to be displayed on an energy-equivalent basis using the familiar MPG measurement. For example, an electric vehicle with fuel consumption of 30 kilowatt-hours/100 miles has a fuel efficiency of 112 MPGe (based on the conversion factor of 33.705 kilowatt-hours/gallon of gasoline equivalent).


NissanClient73 wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Who is the party in the boldface? A dealer employee (e.g. sales critter, F&I guy, etc.)? I don't think you ever answered my question: Do you have it in WRITING that your extended warranty extends the battery capacity warranty? If so, by how long?


I am sorry, I can’t provide you neither agents ID number nor my case number opened by that person.
However, the person who told me that we have time till 2019 to replace a battery was a Leaf specialist that answered the 1-877-664-2738.

It is documented, because the specialist that closed out case explained that that the case should not have been opened. Perhaps, the person who opened the case is already fired.

So far, it sounds like you have no written documentation in hand to support your claim that the capacity warranty has been extended. You should've received this at pre-purchase of extended warranty, at purchase time or within a few weeks after purchase.

2011 and 2012 Leaf originally shipped with NO capacity warranty of any kind, so if you bought the extended warranty when you purchased your '11 Leaf new, it makes it even more unlikely that a capacity warranty that didn't exist was extended.

Capacity warranty was announced much later and later we learned it was due in part/mostly/completely due to the Klee class action settlement. (e.g. https://www.engadget.com/2012/12/28/nis ... ry-charge/ in late 2012 and viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192).
Last edited by cwerdna on Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

NissanClient73
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:47 am
Delivery Date: 10 Apr 2018
Leaf Number: 016549

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:41 am

Correct. I have no written prove that extended warranty covers the battery degradation. Although, I have a prove that the case was opened for “battery replacement under warranty”. It was opened by Nissan. I believe that Nissan should reopen the case and fulfill their original promise to replace the battery.

SageBrush
Posts: 2918
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:52 am

OP, are you confusing MPGe with range ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 8402
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:00 am

SageBrush wrote:OP, are you confusing MPGe with range ?

Looks like NissanClient73 is.

As a reference for them, https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... 3&id=38500 shows other (mostly useless) MPGe figures for 2 vehicles with MUCH more range autonomy and 1 less than the '11 Leaf. Their EPA range rating is also shown there.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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