arnis
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:16 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:V2G could offer the potential to add far more renewable energy sources to the grid by providing massive distributed storage for it. That is probably far into the future, but why not build the foundation for it today?


There will be massive demand for vehicle charging. Smart delay will provide massive "planned consumption" - aka vehicles only charge if there is energy that is appropriate for low-priority tasks (charging EVs). V2G also consumes at appropriate moment. It just gives back when grid asks. But there are losses. And in the end discharged battery must be charged again. With losses.


V2G also offers other benefits in reducing localized strain on transmission and distribution networks, particularly during peak load events. It can potentially defer or remove the need entirely for capital equipment upgrades.

Smart delay systems do not represent a reduction or offset of load. They only represent a reduction in the impact of new load. This is beneficial but no-where near as beneficial as two-way power flows.


Smart delay will also reduce strain during peak load because there will be no load as vehicles will not consume while grid peaks.

Smart delay system will definitely offset the load to later time. That's the whole idea of smart delay. V2G ideology consumes while there is no peak (same with delay system) and discharges to grid while it peaks (on the other hand delay system stops consumption which lowers grid load).

If we exclude V2G inefficiency two paused vehicles are exactly the same as one V2G vehicle.
In real life it's something like 1,6-1,7 paused vehicles is the same as one V2G vehicle.

I would call pausing devices as PoD - Pause on Demand: Not sure but it seems it represents my idea as clearly as possible in few words.
Also this tech can be used for central heating/water heating devices. Or any other buffer-capable power hungry device.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

Oliverovan
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Wed May 10, 2017 12:17 pm

I want It!
By the end of the year we will live in a Net Zero capable home with enough solar PV to power the house (all electric including GSHP for heating and cooling) AND still have enough to charge the Leaf! If the 30kW car battery could be used to power the house during the non-sunny hours then we could be really off the grid!
3.36kW rooftop PV system from 303 Solar/City Electric

alozzy
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Wed May 10, 2017 12:51 pm

A little off topic, but I would like to see V2V solutions. It would be awesome if you could call a friend, or AAA, and do a DCQC from CHADEMO to CHADEMO or, if technically possible, CHADEMO to CCS.

Obviously not something one would do on a regular basis, but it sure would be handy in VLBW situations.

It could lend itself well to an Uber like model too.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

alozzy
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Wed May 10, 2017 12:59 pm

Whadda ya know! Found one:

http://www.andromedapower.com/orca-inceptive/

Bet it ain't cheap though!
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

alozzy
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Wed May 10, 2017 1:08 pm

Confirmed, $26k - ouch!

For AAA though, if they charged $100 for an emergency QC and did 10 calls a week, payback would be 6 months.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

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Marktm
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Wed May 10, 2017 1:16 pm

alozzy wrote:A little off topic, but I would like to see V2V solutions. It would be awesome if you could call a friend, or AAA, and do a DCQC from CHADEMO to CHADEMO or, if technically possible, CHADEMO to CCS.

Obviously not something one would do on a regular basis, but it sure would be handy in VLBW situations.

It could lend itself well to an Uber like model too.


Refer to the ORCA Inceptive - http://www.andromedapower.com/orca-inceptive/

Sorry for the repeat - should have finished reviewing all posts!

Another opinion piece that supports the eventual multi-purpose uses of EVs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM
2012 Leaf SL; 34,000 miles. 12 bars - Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.
4000 watts Grid-tied solar. 3000 watts (level II) off-grid solar Leaf charging capable.

arnis
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Fri May 12, 2017 11:29 am

Oliverovan wrote:I want It!
By the end of the year we will live in a Net Zero capable home with enough solar PV to power the house (all electric including GSHP for heating and cooling) AND still have enough to charge the Leaf! If the 30kW car battery could be used to power the house during the non-sunny hours then we could be really off the grid!


Nice.

Though people usually buy their vehicles to use them as transportation devices.
Just hinting that EV-s, before they can be a) driven; b) used as energy sources; must be recharged.

What you need is a Powerwall2. Then you could recharge your vehicle too. On the juice you collected when you were at work (midday).
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

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RegGuheert
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Sat May 13, 2017 12:11 pm

arnis wrote:V2G is absolute nonsense.
No, it is actually a great idea.
arnis wrote:It requires massive investment and pays very little back.
Today. If we are smart, that will change.
arnis wrote:What makes sense is smart delay system: charging stops on demand for a second/minute/hour. Requires almost no investment and is efficient.
Agreed this is the most appropriate first step.
arnis wrote:V2G is a lose-lose cycle.
Agreed that storing energy should be avoided, when possible.
arnis wrote:Energy lost due to charging.
Yes, approximately 1%.
arnis wrote:Energy lost due to discharging.
Another approximately 1%.
arnis wrote:Energy lost due to conversation from grid AC to battery DC and back again.
Approximately 1% each way if done well.
arnis wrote:Energy lost due to line-losses.
Nonsense, since the vehicle is *much* closer to the load than the power plant. This is actually an important benefit of B2G technology.
arnis wrote:Grid-2-grid cycle total efficiency catastrophic.
95% efficiency is "catastrophic"? No, that kind of efficiency is what enables this type of technology to allow us to move into the future.
arnis wrote:I don't understand why educated engineers (there are no at Nissan as we all know) don't stop this nonsense.
So you are saying that the engineers at Nissan that developed the BEV which is still the top-selling EV in the world six-and-a-half years after it was introduced into the market are uneducated? What a ridiculous statement. I have met quite a few of the engineers who designed the LEAF and I can tell you that they are extremely talented at their jobs. Frankly, I think an apology is appropriate.
arnis wrote:Most likely same reason why hydrogen was hot thing for years.
I don't recall hydrogen ever being "hot" beyond in the minds of some who don't (or won't?) see the obvious problems with that approach.
arnis wrote:PS! after all those losses car must be charged AGAIN.
This is where the approach taken to V2G becomes important. Obviously, you need to keep enough charge in your vehicle to get to your destination (plus a healthy margin). While this is only possible with a small subset of the BEVs in use today, it is likely to be commonplace in the near future.

But the other part of the equation is when the BEV is charged. As more and more PV generators are added to the grid, it will become more-and-more important to provide storage so that PV generation does not have to be curtailed. Since vehicle batteries NEED to be stored AND since Li-ion storage batteries are the most efficient form of storage around, the obvious thing to do is to charge those BEV batteries when the sun is shining.

The next issue then becomes how to prevent from running fossil-fuel-based generators when the sun does not shine and the wind does not blow. Sure, you could buy EXTRA batteries to do this, but that would mean having nearly double the amount of batteries than would otherwise be needed. We already have a desire to have lots of extra battery capacity in our cars for convenience and for longer trips. Why not use that capacity for other purposes when not needed for driving?

My idea is to move the metering for BEV charging and discharging to the vehicle itself. This would allow for "vehicle net metering" to allow BEV owners to purchase electricity during the daytime when there is a glut of PV energy (and therefore low prices) and allow them to sell at nighttime to either offset their consumption at nighttime or to provide energy to the grid in order to reduce the electricity needed from fossil-fuel generators.
arnis wrote:And there is also a cycling degradation.
That is a real issue with *some* Li-ion batteries today. Of course, we know that this is NOT a fundamental limitation of Li-ion batteries, but rather it is an issue that will be almost completely engineered out of most future batteries. As it stands, there are already Li-ion chemistries which can withstand 12,000 FULL cycles and still retain over 80% of their original capacity. This level of durability (and more) is coming to the vast majority of the Li-ion batteries in the future.

Simply put, Li-ion batteries are the key enabling technology not only for BEVs, but for much higher penetration levels of renewable generators on our electricity grids. The Li-ion batteries in future BEVs should have the capacity and durability to provide for a multi-purpose role.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

arnis
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Sat May 13, 2017 1:27 pm

iPhone is also a "top selling smartphone" - but almost everybody agrees that it has almost never been the best
in anything. Leaf, being the "top", doesn't mean it is excellent, good, average, bad, very bad. Being on top doesn't define that.

V2G is not 95% efficient compared to load shift. We should exclude local generation to look at the isolated V2G setup.
To offer any load shifting, energy must be charged into the pack at one time and discharged at another time.
There are losses between primary energy generation (power plant) and battery.
And then there are losses between battery and consumers (grid is consumer).
This not only includes inverter near the vehicle. But also transformers that send electricity
to "nearby" consumers. Between consumers there is two transformers. At least.
Only some of the juice will be used by your closest neighbor with whom you might share a transformer.

Smart delay is not only the first step. It is the first and could be the last for perfect results.
If all excessive consumption (more than clean power plants can produce) is removed, problem is solved.
This includes vehicle that tries to charge at night when there is no available juice. Paused for too long.
In situation where there is demand for more energy that has been produced, V2G does not solve anything
(there is nothing to shift as there is deficit of energy).
Due to the reason vehicles are mobile, they are not reliable load shifter. Therefore widespread V2G system
will fail the grid once on the holidays when everybody goes somewhere and other day when everybody goes
to football play and leave their V2G vehicles near stadion. Not connected to grid.

V2G could be a second step but it is only helping if first step is unfinished.
And, like we agreed, Pause on Demand is still more efficient than storing for later.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

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RegGuheert
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Sat May 13, 2017 2:14 pm

arnis wrote:iPhone is also a "top selling smartphone" - but almost everybody agrees that it has almost never been the best
in anything. Leaf, being the "top", doesn't mean it is excellent, good, average, bad, very bad. Being on top doesn't define that.
Apple also employs some of the best engineers in the world in the design of their products. Again, your insult of the outstanding engineers at Nissan was completely uncalled for. It reflects more on you than on Nissan or its engineers.
arnis wrote:V2G is not 95% efficient compared to load shift.
You might be unaware of the current state of technology, but I am not. Single-phase inverters at that power level are already over 99.2% efficient TODAY. (See SE3500H and SE3680H graphs in that link. And that inverter is likely significantly CHEAPER (per kW) than the current generation of V2G products.) The battery in the Nissan LEAF has a round-trip efficiency of 97%. What that means is that FUTURE technology will achieve this level of performance (95% round-trip efficiency) or higher. The technology is already there and it will only get cheaper to achieve the same or better performance in the future.

Again, since the ROUND TRIP distance from the renewable generators to the BEV plus from the BEV to the home loads is MUCH shorter than the typical distance from a power plant to a home, the overall losses in the V2G configuration is likely to be LOWER than the losses in the current situation.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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