BioNick
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2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:16 pm

Hey Leaf owners!

Nissan announced at CES that they're going to enable to Vehicle to Grid charging (potentially getting paid for both giving and receiving power from the grid).

Has anyone ever used this or something like this before? Is it actually feasible?

And if it does exist in the near future, what does everyone think are the pros and cons?

magico13
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:28 pm

I remember reading a thread here about someone already doing this for emergency purposes. Let me see if I can find it.... http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13097
2015 SV w/ QC

rmay635703
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:30 pm

My thought is its 2017 and it didn't happen

OakLeaf
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:30 pm

Not sure about it being only 2017's that have bi-directional CHAdeMO - I was under the impression earlier Leaf model years had this ability already. What is mostly lacking is the general availability of the "To Grid" equipment here in the US.

My suspicious side says the reason we don't see Nissan encouraging it here more is that it might have led to even more battery degradation issues than they already have to deal with.

My rational side says it's because the equipment is expensive and electricity is cheap, so where would be a reasonable payback to the vehicle owners?

My practical side says it would make a good (but limited) emergency backup - the link to the DIY thread in the above post is probably the best solution reasonably available here today. Maybe someday Nissan will integrate this DC/AC plug feature?


An earlier discussion thread:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8910


Other relevant links:

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/publish/pressrelease_en/corporate/2012/news/detail0834.html

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076589_nissan-launches-leaf-to-home-electric-car-power-system

http://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-powers-a-concert-using-v2h-chademo-video/

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095510_u-s-air-force-unveils-fleet-of-42-electric-vehicles-nissan-leafs-included

https://transportevolved.com/2015/06/09/chademo-associations-next-move-making-your-electric-car-power-your-home-the-electricity-grid/

arnis
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:31 pm

V2G is absolute nonsense. It requires massive investment and pays very little back.
What makes sense is smart delay system: charging stops on demand for a second/minute/hour
Requires almost no investment and is efficient.

V2G is a lose-lose cycle. Energy lost due to charging. Energy lost due to discharging.
Energy lost due to conversation from grid AC to battery DC and back again. Energy lost
due to line-losses. Grid-2-grid cycle total efficiency catastrophic.

I don't understand why educated engineers (there are no at Nissan as we all know)
don't stop this nonsense. Most likely same reason why hydrogen was hot thing for years.



PS! after all those losses car must be charged AGAIN. And there is also a cycling degradation.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

edatoakrun
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:07 pm

BioNick wrote:Hey Leaf owners!

Nissan announced at CES that they're going to enable to Vehicle to Grid charging (potentially getting paid for both giving and receiving power from the grid).

Has anyone ever used this or something like this before? Is it actually feasible?

And if it does exist in the near future, what does everyone think are the pros and cons?

The benefits are obvious, and IMO, in a decade or two it will be viewed as comical that in the early days of the BEV transition we put hundreds of millions of kWh in vehicle battery packs, then limited their use by not providing them the ability to discharge to, as well as charge from, external sources.

Links to many many (V2H), vehicle-to-building (V2B), and vehicle-to-grid (V2G) applications are discussed on this thread:

V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15816


And below is Nissan's most recent summary:
...Announcing the New Nissan LEAF: The Next Chapter in Nissan Intelligent Power

On stage at CES, Ghosn announced plans to launch a new Nissan LEAF, with ProPILOT technology, enabling autonomous drive functionality for single-lane highway driving. The new LEAF is coming in the near future and represents the next chapter of Nissan Intelligent Power.

The new LEAF will build on Nissan's industry-leading position in electric vehicles (EVs)...

EV batteries can do more than just provide power for driving – they can also be used as energy storage devices. To this end, Nissan is promoting EVs as clean mobile energy units. Integration of EVs into society will help energy distribution across the grid, and vehicle-to-home (V2H), vehicle-to-building (V2B), and vehicle-to-grid (V2G) solutions have already been adopted in many markets such as Europe, the U.S. and Japan.

In 2012, Nissan introduced its "LEAF to Home" system in Japan, allowing drivers to supply a house with the energy stored in a Nissan LEAF battery. Users can charge the Nissan LEAFs at night when electricity is cheaper, and then use that electricity as the daytime power source for a household. This way, the system helps to alleviate power consumption during peak periods when demand is highest and most expensive. It can also be used as a backup power supply for blackouts and emergencies.

Nissan has also been testing a V2B system at the Nissan Advanced Technology Center in Japan since 2013. In this project, six LEAFs contribute to a decrease in electricity costs. Nissan's new Europe HQ in Paris will be partly powered by V2B and V2G technology when it opens in spring 2017.

Today about 4,000 households in Japan are utilizing EVs to manage home energy use, and thousands of EVs are powering buildings in the U.S., Japan and Europe.

For example the Hawaiian island of Maui, Nissan LEAF owners volunteered to participate in a unique project which explored the possibilities of combining smart grid, renewable energy and electric vehicle technologies into a single comprehensive energy-management solution. Residents use renewable energy from wind and solar sources to power their vehicles. In return, they use energy stored in their EV to manage the energy of the island. About 600 LEAF owners participated in the project and Nissan, along with other partners, are using the information to inform technology development and policy recommendations.

Elsewhere in the U.S., Nissan is involved with a variety of V2G and V2B activities. For example, Nissan has been a long-term partner with the Department of Defense on multiple grid-based projects at Los Angeles Air Force Base (California), Fort Hood (Texas), and Joint Base Andrews (Maryland). Combined, approximately 30 LEAFs have been deployed at these bases to demonstrate the technical and market viability of EV participation on the grid. Similar programs are underway between Nissan and other organizations around the U.S., including universities and utilities.

Nissan is also involved with commercializing V2H technology in the US based on market success in Japan. In this context, V2H would provide a homeowner with emergency power during outages and, potentially, a means of storing solar energy for use later in the day or at night. As part of its commercialization effort, Nissan demonstrated the V2H technology to a variety of US audiences in 2016, including to the general public.

Finally, Nissan is also helping to extend the "second life" of the EVs' lithium-ion batteries. In Europe, through the xStorage project, in partnership with Eaton, consumers can save money by drawing energy from the sun and the grid, and then sell it back to energy companies. Meanwhile, xStorage for business allows organizations with high energy consumption to manage their energy usage and to power their business in a more sustainable, smarter way.

For example, in November 2016, Nissan and Eaton announced a ground-breaking 10-year deal with Amsterdam Arena – the world-famous entertainment venue and home of Ajax Football Club - to provide back-up power from secondhand Nissan LEAF batteries. The xStorage-building system will help to ensure the lights never go out at the renowned 55,000-seat stadium, which has played host to numerous high profile concerts and sporting events over the years...

http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/ ... ity-at-ces
no condition is permanent

silverone
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:27 pm

arnis wrote:V2G is absolute nonsense. It requires massive investment and pays very little back.
What makes sense is smart delay system: charging stops on demand for a second/minute/hour
Requires almost no investment and is efficient.

V2G is a lose-lose cycle. Energy lost due to charging. Energy lost due to discharging.
Energy lost due to conversation from grid AC to battery DC and back again. Energy lost
due to line-losses. Grid-2-grid cycle total efficiency catastrophic.

I don't understand why educated engineers (there are no at Nissan as we all know)
don't stop this nonsense. Most likely same reason why hydrogen was hot thing for years.



PS! after all those losses car must be charged AGAIN. And there is also a cycling degradation.


At low grid loading during off-peak times, the spinning generation units are already not running at peak efficiency. Some are kept running just because of peak loading and the cost and time required to startup is greater than losses from less than optimal continuous running. You can afford some conversion losses if it allows some of the spinning reserve to shut down.
2013 SL with Premium package - build date 5/13. 12 bar car with 39,000 miles and counting...
2014 Volt - 45,000+ miles

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Stanton
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:38 pm

With a stable power grid (I can't remember the last time we really had a power outage) I have no interest in this feature.
After all, I need just about all the Watts I put into my Leaf to drive it!
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GetOffYourGas
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:32 am

V2G could offer the potential to add far more renewable energy sources to the grid by providing massive distributed storage for it. That is probably far into the future, but why not build the foundation for it today?
~Brian

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Aussie
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Re: 2017 Leaf to offer V2G: Thoughts?

Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:55 pm

arnis wrote:V2G is absolute nonsense. It requires massive investment and pays very little back.
What makes sense is smart delay system: charging stops on demand for a second/minute/hour
Requires almost no investment and is efficient.

V2G is a lose-lose cycle. Energy lost due to charging. Energy lost due to discharging.
Energy lost due to conversation from grid AC to battery DC and back again. Energy lost
due to line-losses. Grid-2-grid cycle total efficiency catastrophic.

I don't understand why educated engineers (there are no at Nissan as we all know)
don't stop this nonsense. Most likely same reason why hydrogen was hot thing for years.



PS! after all those losses car must be charged AGAIN. And there is also a cycling degradation.


This statement is written with an awful lot of confidence given it is complete nonsense. The reality is that the wholesale costs and emissions intensity of most electrical grids varies widely. Costs vary between negative (where a wholesale customer is paid to take energy) to many thousands of dollars per MWh. Emissions vary from zero (renewables, baseload nuclear) to highly polluting (liquid fuels in open cycle peaker plans).

V2G has the potential to reduce or remove entirely these price spikes and minimize the operation of emissions & pollution intensive generation by providing an alternate source of energy. Even including round-trip losses this still offers significant opportunity for financial gain and emissions reduction.

V2G also offers other benefits in reducing localized strain on transmission and distribution networks, particularly during peak load events. It can potentially defer or remove the need entirely for capital equipment upgrades.

Smart delay systems do not represent a reduction or offset of load. They only represent a reduction in the impact of new load. This is beneficial but no-where near as beneficial as two-way power flows.

I can only hope that a market based mechanism can be developed to incentivise these benefits to the EV owner. I would be happy to sell my remaining energy at $1+/kWh at 6pm when I return home from work and then recharge overnight at $0.10/kWh, even if only for a couple of days a year.

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