Charging frequency

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boba

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2014
Messages
82
Location
Hope Maine
At the first yearly checkup a couple of years ago I was told that I was charging too often and should travel more miles before doing so. My wife has an incurable case of range anxiety so we continued (trickle) charging often. The range vs. temperature plot here in Maine is the same now as in the first year, so I see no evidence of significant battery deterioration after 17000 miles and two and one half years. Comments?
 
I am in a very similar situation to yours, so curious to see any technical responses to your post. I still haven't had the time or urge to get leaf spy working but I can tell you my wife likes to charge up any chance she gets! Even after I explain the concerns about too much charging as you stated.
2015 SV, purchased Nov 2014, shy of 14,000 miles, no apparent battery degradation, live in Mary-land.
Primarily use L2 charger (6.6) in garage. cheers
 
This isn't a "technical response," but it is an anecdotal response. I drove the 2011 LEAF until it had lost 7 capacity bars, a range of 26 miles to Low Battery Warning, and just under 60K miles when the battery was replaced under warranty.

What seems to be the general consensus is that high state of charge isn't the best for the battery, but high heat is much worse, but exponentially worse is high heat AND high state of charge. Living in Maine and Maryland, you're probably avoiding a good portion of the high heat degradation.

I believe the batteries in my LEAF were wrecked by the dealership in Tampa leaving it charged at 100% for the entire time they had it, as it sat out in the heat of the Florida Spring, Summer, and Autumn. I am surprised that a yearly battery report gave only four stars on something instead of five, as even at 7 capacity bars down I had everything with five stars. It shows how irrelevant the annual battery reports are. I used to charge at L1 for about a year after I got it, leaving it outside the garage where it was cooler, but I don't think there is any significant difference between L1 and L2, and even QC as long as it doesn't heat the battery to a great extent. I really only ever saw six temperature bars maximum, with occasional five temperature bars in the winter here in Florida.

As I got further and further down in range, I started keeping the LEAF at a higher state of charge, and at the end I too was charging to 100% at every opportunity, just to be able to get anywhere, and this is the key part, being able to get back home. I did feel that this was contributing to the further demise of the battery, but I don't have any scientific evidence, I think the decline remained at about the same rate.

One other small detail about charging to 100% is that the charge rate tapers down, so the inherent overhead electric consumption of the LEAF while charging becomes an added inefficiency. Add to that the regeneration is negligible at 100% SOC also, so there are a couple more reasons to live with less than 100% SOC when possible.

I now have the new battery, and I am trying to keep it down around 70% SOC maximum, and 20% SOC minimum. One of the forum members, AntronX suggested the 70%, and he is pretty knowledgeable so I'm taking his advice, and it hasn't been any inconvenience. I don't know if this will help it or not. Obviously if I have a long distance to drive I'd charge it to 100%, as others who have long commutes do. I didn't have "range anxiety" even as low as my battery got, I knew what parameters I had to live within. I did a 50 mile round trip even at 5 capacity bars down, but obviously with not much to spare. I found out too, if you're getting closer to the maximum range, slowing down really helps to extend the distance it will go. Tony Williams has provided an accurate chart for people to see on the forum, and with LeafSpy you will also have a true knowledge about the battery situation, so I would definitely advise people to get it. The program also provides a good bit of extra information, such as tire pressures too, so it can be very helpful.
 
boba said:
At the first yearly checkup a couple of years ago I was told that I was charging too often and should travel more miles before doing so. My wife has an incurable case of range anxiety so we continued (trickle) charging often. The range vs. temperature plot here in Maine is the same now as in the first year, so I see no evidence of significant battery deterioration after 17000 miles and two and one half years. Comments?

You did not provide near enough information to make an informed comment.

What is the farthest you have driven in a day?
How much time does your LEAF spend at full charge?

So I am guessing answer #1 is under 50 miles.

Answer #2 is "at least several hours per day, nearly every day.


Conclusion; If you are comfortable with what you are doing, to Hell with anyone else's opinion. Your driving needs are likely to be covered for several more years.
 
I most of the time I charge to 85%. Charging to 100% occurs maybe 3 or 4 times a year and the leaf is used within an hour or two after reaching 100%. The longest trip in one day is about 160 miles to an ev rally each September. The next longest is about 80 miles and happens 2 or 3 times a year. Most trips range between 15 and 25 miles. Today we had a low 90 degree day and a trip calculated out to be at a 113 mile range. I still don't see any measurable damage that goes with short charges at least under the stated conditions.
 
There is nothing in the warranty terms that could be construed to void coverage for low scores, just the requirement to have the test performed annually. Therefore, drive/charge the car as you need and don't worry about the test results. The main purpose of the report is really to collect detailed information for Nissan.
 
IF the OP has a 2013 Leaf, then the 80% charge is the way to go, with them charging to 100% before a trip whenever they feel the slightest need, using the timer override button. If it's a 2014 or 2015, then it's easy enough to estimate L-1 charge (5% per hour, slightly more as the battery degrades) and stop it at 80-90%.
 
I plug-in every night whether I need it or not (except weekends) and let the car charge to 80%; I like getting "charge stopped" messages every morning. :p
If I need more that day, I use the Nissan app to "top off".
 
I've only owned mine for a few months, but I've tried to do as much research as possible to get the best battery life I can. Mine is a 2013 so I'm able to set the charge % to 80%, which I've heard helps, and I never let it go below 20%. At least that's my goal, there have been a few times where I've dipped into the 15-18% range. From what I've read your best bet is to keep it within the 20-80% range, and avoid DC quick charging unless you absolutely need it. Other than that I can't find any data about charging every day or not. I'm curious to see if there's more data on this though.
 
You can run the charge below 20% safely, as long as you recharge above 20% immediately afterwards. Many people regularly drive to 10% or so, usually because of reduced range.
 
2013 Leaf here, charge to 100% all the time. It sits at 100% for prolonged periods of time. Some days it sits for days at 100%. Sometimes it drives from 100% charge to 90% before charging back up and so on. Other times down to 10% or less. 26K miles or so. No noticeable difference in range. Also have sticky winter tires. I abuse the car and so far it hasn't been KO'd.
 
2k1Toaster said:
2013 Leaf here, charge to 100% all the time. It sits at 100% for prolonged periods of time. Some days it sits for days at 100%. Sometimes it drives from 100% charge to 90% before charging back up and so on. Other times down to 10% or less. 26K miles or so. No noticeable difference in range. Also have sticky winter tires. I abuse the car and so far it hasn't been KO'd.

Do you have any battery stats for it?
 
2k1Toaster said:
2013 Leaf here, charge to 100% all the time. It sits at 100% for prolonged periods of time. Some days it sits for days at 100%. Sometimes it drives from 100% charge to 90% before charging back up and so on. Other times down to 10% or less. 26K miles or so. No noticeable difference in range. Also have sticky winter tires. I abuse the car and so far it hasn't been KO'd.
This is along the lines of "My grandfather smoked 2 packs a day since he was 16, was never sick a day in his life, and only died at age 97 when a bull he was riding at the rodeo threw him off and gored him." ;) Interesting story, but not words to live by. :lol:
 
Stoaty said:
2k1Toaster said:
2013 Leaf here, charge to 100% all the time. It sits at 100% for prolonged periods of time. Some days it sits for days at 100%. Sometimes it drives from 100% charge to 90% before charging back up and so on. Other times down to 10% or less. 26K miles or so. No noticeable difference in range. Also have sticky winter tires. I abuse the car and so far it hasn't been KO'd.
This is along the lines of "My grandfather smoked 2 packs a day since he was 16, was never sick a day in his life, and only died at age 97 when a bull he was riding at the rodeo threw him off and gored him." ;) Interesting story, but not words to live by. :lol:

Especially since we have no idea where this guys lives! We all know that heat is the biggest multiplier of any battery degradation.
 
2k1Toaster said:
2013 Leaf here, charge to 100% all the time. It sits at 100% for prolonged periods of time. Some days it sits for days at 100%. Sometimes it drives from 100% charge to 90% before charging back up and so on. Other times down to 10% or less. 26K miles or so. No noticeable difference in range. Also have sticky winter tires. I abuse the car and so far it hasn't been KO'd.

how about some stats? Problem with your level of usage is you really have no way of evaluating your degradation.

Your statement only addresses one degradation factor
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
hyperionmark said:
If short frequent charges were a problem then regen during braking would be destroying the battery.


It is along with jackrabbit starts... moreso than any other single factor
I believe you, but what is the reasoning? Seems like every other degradation variable is based around time and heat. This seems independent of those things. Just trying to learn more.
 
No stats of importance. It also is abused with Jack rabbit style starts any time.

One of the things I do is build EV's, repair HEVs, and even help test battery packs for big name auto producers.

My climate is mostly mild and cold with sessions of heat, rocky mountains. It also goes up and down hills all the time. The Leaf has been cold soaked at - 40C for days as well as left out in the beating sun at 35C for days. 8000ft to 6500ft elevation is where it lives.

This is not how to get the absolute longest battery life out of a pack. But by worrying and nitpicking everything it just adds to the image that electrics are high maintenance and you need a team of engineers to keep it on the road. The Leaf is one of the most poorly designed EV's to ever hit the market but it still works for most people most of the time. I figure my battery will be down to less than half capacity in another 4 years or so. By then it will be replaced by another EV and added to the collection. The Prius or RX450h get used on the weekends while Leafy sits there full and balanced.

The Leaf's biggest enemies are that of any other battery operated device. Time and temperature. A babied EV or HEV will often have a pack failure roughly around the time of an abused car. This year you see lots of 2005/2006 Prii needing packs. Last year it was 2004/2005. Some cars have 50k miles on them, others have 300k+ miles. Lithium batteries like NiMH essentially rot over time, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Temperature is the next factor. You don't control the weather and unless you're planning to move to accommodate your battery, it makes little sense to worry about it. The only temperature the pack cares about that you have control over is multiple L3 charges in hot ambient temperatures with prolonged and rapid pack use like highway driving. But really this is not common, and is hard on any pack. The larger the pack, the longer between quick charges, the cooler the pack and you can see that from Tesla.

Need to live like the singing bass fish, don't worry be happy.
 
2k1Toaster said:
.... This year you see lots of 2005/2006 Prii needing packs. Last year it was 2004/2005. Some cars have 50k miles on them, others have 300k+ miles. Lithium batteries like NiMH essentially rot over time, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Not to derail this thread, but what happens when a Prii's battery pack goes bad and can it still be driven? I ask because I have a '06/'07 regular Priii(standard original NiMN pack) and I've read about people replacing the battery pack. I was just wondering if it was mandatory or just needed so the car would preform as new.
I mean it seems like the car should be able to drive even without the battery pack but maybe it won't with a defective pack....just wondering what I have to look forward to :(
 
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