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EVDRIVER
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Re: Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:33 pm

jake14mw wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
jake14mw wrote:I wouldn't consider it acceptable to have less than 12 bars on a refurb battery. I would expect the SOH to be at least 90%.

As if that means something.


It means exactly what many other posts mean on message boards, one person's opinion about a particular subject.


I've yet to see Nissan "do the right thing". That's my message board opinion so if they can cut costs and get away with it by doing the minimum where it makes sense I would expect that outcome.
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Re: Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:43 pm

dhanson865 wrote:
SageBrush wrote:https://newsroom.nissan-global.com/releases/180326-04-e

About $2,800 for the 24 kWh refurb. 30 and 40 kWh batteries also mentioned
Looking forward to hearing the warranty details, but caveat emptor: the experience with Prius battery refurbs was awful.

This does make we wonder whether Nissan will soon be using refurbs in warranty repairs. Seems likely, and if correct then BAD news for all concerned. The warranty language only obligating Nissan to return battery capacity to 9 bars or better is no longer a theoretical concern.


I read that as a remanufactured pack with 100% new cells but old controller, old wiring, old pack case and such.

So that you get 2018 cell tech in the 2011/2012 pack...


I doubt it. From the other link there's this language:
Established in 2010 by Nissan and Sumitomo Corporation to focus on the effective reuse of electric-car batteries, 4R has gained valuable expertise. The company has developed a system that quickly measures the performance of used batteries, and it plans to apply this innovative technology to batteries collected from all over Japan at the Namie plant.
(emphasis added)

https://newsroom.nissan-global.com/rele ... 80326-01-e

I take this to signify they will analyze old batteries on a per-module basis and construct refurbished packs from matched sets of better modules thus harvested from the recycle flow. Probably not horrible, but not great either. Calendar aging will still be present; not many batteries are submitted for recycling after a year or two of service other than from crashes. Not sure if there are enough wrecked new-sh LEAFs to satisfy the demand? Perhaps.

My guess is that for half price, you'll probably be getting about half the value. Might be worth it for the value-conscious. As far as 30 and 40kWH batteries in 24kWH LEAFs I wouldn't hold my breath. At least not from Nissan. Constructing batteries with Tesla modules is already a thing in the DIY EV space though.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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Re: Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:47 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
jake14mw wrote:
SageBrush wrote:As if that means something.


It means exactly what many other posts mean on message boards, one person's opinion about a particular subject.


I've yet to see Nissan "do the right thing". That's my message board opinion so if they can cut costs and get away with it by doing the minimum where it makes sense I would expect that outcome.

Mine too, but I was saying something else to jake, that the degradation curve of a '12 bar' refurb is unknown and unlikely to follow the curve of a new 12 bar battery. Not only because it can start at ~ 80% capacity and still be '12 bars,' but capacity loss from that point on when in use may be quite rapid. That was the experience with Prius battery refurbs.
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dhanson865
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Re: Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:59 pm

Nubo wrote:
I doubt it. From the other link there's this language:
Established in 2010 by Nissan and Sumitomo Corporation to focus on the effective reuse of electric-car batteries, 4R has gained valuable expertise. The company has developed a system that quickly measures the performance of used batteries, and it plans to apply this innovative technology to batteries collected from all over Japan at the Namie plant.
(emphasis added)


I saw that but let me put my own emphasis added on there

Established in 2010 by Nissan and Sumitomo Corporation to focus on the effective reuse of electric-car batteries, 4R has gained valuable expertise. The company has developed a system that quickly measures the performance of used batteries, and it plans to apply this innovative technology to batteries collected from all over Japan at the Namie plant.


As in that was their focus 8 years ago. Doesn't mean that is the only thing they can do with their skills. They obviously had to devise methods for rebuilding packs. Those methods work no matter what your replacement cells are or where they were sourced from.

It could be Nissan is just assigning the refurbishment work to them but they are supplying new cells to use. I'm not promising that, but I am saying until I know I'm keeping an open mind.
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Re: Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:51 pm

Established in 2010 by Nissan and Sumitomo Corporation to focus on the effective reuse of electric-car batteries, 4R has gained valuable expertise. The company has developed a system that quickly measures the performance of used batteries, and it plans to apply this innovative technology to batteries collected from all over Japan at the Namie plant.


Now we know.
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Re: Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:59 pm

Replacing old worn out cells with old 'almost' worn out cells isn't what I had in mind.

You know from reading these posts, one can't help but feel there are a lot of dis-satisfied first gen customer. I would like to see Nissan change that with a good workable battery exchange program using new cells. That could ensure to a high degree the program would be positive and might help restore Nissan's credibility.

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Re: Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:53 pm

just spitballing here but crazy thought what if

* a 40 kWh owner needs a warranty pack and gets a new pack, and I mean brand new.
* a 30 kWh owner needs a warranty pack and gets a new pack, and I mean brand new.

* a 30 kWh owner buys out of warranty a remanufactured pack and gets used 40 kWh cells (firmware clips at 30 kWh even if the pack has more than that). The cells would show as below 100% SOH in a 40 kWh pack but show as 100% SOH in the 30 kWh pack.

* a 24 kWh owner buys out of warranty a remanufactured pack and gets used 30 kWh cells (firmware clips at 24.x kWh even if the pack has more than that). The cells would show as below 100% SOH in a 30 kWh pack but show as 100% SOH in the 24.x kWh pack.

So maybe you get used cells but at the same time get 100% SOH compared to your prior pack capacity. Maybe enough cushion left over to keep you from seeing sub 100% SOH for a few months even though they are still degrading.

The old 24 kWh pack turned in goes off to be SolarPV storage packs and isn't used in cars.
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Re: Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:54 pm

The pack structure isn't the same for 30 and 40kwh as for 24. It could be done, but likely it won't.
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Re: Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:03 pm

How do you refurbish a battery? New anode, cathode and electrolyte?
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Re: Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:19 pm

SageBrush wrote:.....that the degradation curve of a '12 bar' refurb is unknown and unlikely to follow the curve of a new 12 bar battery. Not only because it can start at ~ 80% capacity and still be '12 bars,' but capacity loss from that point on when in use may be quite rapid. That was the experience with Prius battery refurbs.
I hope I got the quote cut correctly. Spot on! This is probably one of the reasons that Tesla publically states that it’s better to recycle the battery (complete chemical separation and generation of new raw material stock) than to reuse old batteries, even for grid storage. Also, grid batteries have different charge/discharge needs and energy density than EV batteries.
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