GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

GCC: Nissan shifting EV focus to affordability instead of range

Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:16 pm

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/04/201080424-nissan.html


. . .in a media session in Hong Kong, Carlos Ghosn . . . said that the group is shifting is focus on EVs to affordability, having addressed the range issue.

Ghosn said the companies only recently determined that 300km was the key milestone, as car owners on average drive just around 50km a day. “You could not have guessed this [result] through studies,” he said. “You had to have 500,000 [electric] cars on the ground to understand that consumers do not put autonomy on top of their concerns any more when you cross 300km.”

For the Chinese market in particular, price is now the key issue, Ghosn said. “When you look what are the electric Chinese cars that are selling, they are very, very affordable cars,” he said. “The price point of the Leaf today is not adequate for the Chinese market.”
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

RonDawg
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Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: GCC: Nissan shifting EV focus to affordability instead of range

Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:04 pm

Personally, I think the industry needs to focus more on the sub $30k market (even if it means a reduced range model) to get more people into EV's. Right now the only EV occupying that space is the Smart ForTwo ED, though we did have the Chevy Spark EV for a while.

Nissan missed an opportunity here; they could have kept the old-bodystyle Leaf, with the 30 kWH battery, decontented it even further (no proximity key), no options other than color, and priced it at $25k. They've done such a thing before with the Rogue Select, and GM does this a lot (though GM tends to sell these to fleets rather than individuals).
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: GCC: Nissan shifting EV focus to affordability instead of range

Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:46 pm

...with the 30 kWH battery...


So you want that fraud to continue??? They would do better to offer the old S or SV, cold weather package (with heatpump) extra as with the new SV, and the Lizard version of the 24kwh pack. By year three it would have as much or more range as the S30. Clearly, though, Nissan prefers to give enough range when the car is new, and to hell with the customer after two years.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
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Location: Colorado

Re: GCC: Nissan shifting EV focus to affordability instead of range

Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:31 pm

My take on the Nissan missive:

They are not able to make a good EV that will compete with ICE on price, but they know how to make a crap EV very cheaply that they hope will appeal to China. Perhaps they intend to continue buying the battery production from the factory they sold to the Chinese. It certainly does not bode well for that factory improving its product.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Evoforce
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Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: GCC: Nissan shifting EV focus to affordability instead of range

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:01 pm

Yes, I am saddened to hear that. Their mentality does not bode well for the mentality of most US consumers.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

SageBrush
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Re: GCC: Nissan shifting EV focus to affordability instead of range

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:19 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
...with the 30 kWH battery...


So you want that fraud to continue??? They would do better to offer the old S or SV, cold weather package (with heatpump) extra as with the new SV, and the Lizard version of the 24kwh pack. By year three it would have as much or more range as the S30. Clearly, though, Nissan prefers to give enough range when the car is new, and to hell with the customer after two years.

A 30 kWh LEAF in the US is good for 30*0.65 ~ 19 kWh minimum for 8 yrs/100k miles.

This forum is chock full of 24 kWh LEAF owners who would be delighted to have what the 30 kWh LEAF offers.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 9113
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GCC: Nissan shifting EV focus to affordability instead of range

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:04 pm

SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
...with the 30 kWH battery...


So you want that fraud to continue??? They would do better to offer the old S or SV, cold weather package (with heatpump) extra as with the new SV, and the Lizard version of the 24kwh pack. By year three it would have as much or more range as the S30. Clearly, though, Nissan prefers to give enough range when the car is new, and to hell with the customer after two years.

A 30 kWh LEAF in the US is good for 30*0.65 ~ 19 kWh minimum for 8 yrs/100k miles.

This forum is chock full of 24 kWh LEAF owners who would be delighted to have what the 30 kWh LEAF offers.

Which assumes that 8 bars represents 65% on the 30kWh LEAF now, and that Nissan doesn't choose to reduce it in the future. The first seems questionable given some of the owner reports of when the 9th bar drops, and the last, given Nissan's unwillingness to provide a capacity warranty with a defined hard value as well as their past behavior is not something many informed buyers would trust.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 2687
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: GCC: Nissan shifting EV focus to affordability instead of range

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:39 pm

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
So you want that fraud to continue??? They would do better to offer the old S or SV, cold weather package (with heatpump) extra as with the new SV, and the Lizard version of the 24kwh pack. By year three it would have as much or more range as the S30. Clearly, though, Nissan prefers to give enough range when the car is new, and to hell with the customer after two years.

A 30 kWh LEAF in the US is good for 30*0.65 ~ 19 kWh minimum for 8 yrs/100k miles.

This forum is chock full of 24 kWh LEAF owners who would be delighted to have what the 30 kWh LEAF offers.

Which assumes that 8 bars represents 65% on the 30kWh LEAF now, and that Nissan doesn't choose to reduce it in the future. The first seems questionable given some of the owner reports of when the 9th bar drops, and the last, given Nissan's unwillingness to provide a capacity warranty with a defined hard value as well as their past behavior is not something many informed buyers would trust.

It actually presumes 63% of new battery capacity when the 9th bar drops*.
That is my impression from reports here.

The major change Nissan made to the capacity bars correlation to capacity is in the first bar, presumably to have more cars at "12 bars" when the lease is up. Very Nissan-like, I grant you; but not relevant to the warranty. As for your argument that Nissan can change the capacity bar thing on a whim, that holds true for any generation LEAF so far.

*It always surprises me that there is so little noise over that tidbit since Nissan has put out quite a lot of written material stating that the 9th bar drops at around 70%. Must be a trump phenomenon: when outrageous crap happens frequently, people do not have time to be outraged over everything.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9227
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: GCC: Nissan shifting EV focus to affordability instead of range

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:45 pm

Which assumes that 8 bars represents 65% on the 30kWh LEAF now, and that Nissan doesn't choose to reduce it in the future. The first seems questionable given some of the owner reports of when the 9th bar drops, and the last, given Nissan's unwillingness to provide a capacity warranty with a defined hard value as well as their past behavior is not something many informed buyers would trust.


This may surprise some here, but few people want to buy or lease a car with a 107 mile range, have that range immediately start to drop, have to wait roughly two years (or three, or four) for it to lose enough capacity for a warranty replacement (all the while losing more and more range), and then find that not only does the replacement pack behave exactly the same way, but that it may be made from used cells with 80% the capacity (and range!) of the original. That's a starting range of 88 miles. I think that more people would remain happy with their Leaf if it had an advertised 83 mile range, and 5 years later could still go 70+ miles.
Last edited by LeftieBiker on Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GRA
Posts: 9113
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GCC: Nissan shifting EV focus to affordability instead of range

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:48 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:A 30 kWh LEAF in the US is good for 30*0.65 ~ 19 kWh minimum for 8 yrs/100k miles.

This forum is chock full of 24 kWh LEAF owners who would be delighted to have what the 30 kWh LEAF offers.

Which assumes that 8 bars represents 65% on the 30kWh LEAF now, and that Nissan doesn't choose to reduce it in the future. The first seems questionable given some of the owner reports of when the 9th bar drops, and the last, given Nissan's unwillingness to provide a capacity warranty with a defined hard value as well as their past behavior is not something many informed buyers would trust.

It actually presumes 63% of new battery capacity when the 9th bar drops*.
That is my impression from reports here.

The major change Nissan made to the capacity bars correlation to capacity is in the first bar, presumably to have more cars at "12 bars" when the lease is up. Very Nissan-like, I grant you; but not relevant to the warranty. As for your argument that Nissan can change the capacity bar thing on a whim, that holds true for any generation LEAF so far.

*It always surprises me that there is so little noise over that tidbit since Nissan has put out quite a lot of written material stating that the 9th bar drops at around 70%. Must be a trump phenomenon: when outrageous crap happens frequently, people do not have time to be outraged over everything.

AFAIR, the only time when Nissan was required to legally define the value of a bar was in the warranty for 20121-2012 24kWh cars agreed to as part of the class action settlement. That's when I recall the "about 70%' claim, even though it was actually 66.25% (15% + (3 x 6.25%)).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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