Tsiah
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Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:07 pm

2016 SL. I was in the low 90% SOH (I think 92-94%) before I got the firmware update. Immediately I saw over 101%SOH after the update and the SOH is now back to 91.62% 3 months later. 72.82Ahr. I have 30330 miles on the car. 88QC's, 1085L1/L2's. It definitely feels like I'm down 9% in range. I don't notice it until the low end of the charge but it seems like that last 20% of the battery goes a lot quicker than it used to.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:14 pm

Tsiah wrote:2016 SL. I was in the low 90% SOH (I think 92-94%) before I got the firmware update. Immediately I saw over 101%SOH after the update and the SOH is now back to 91.62% 3 months later. 72.82Ahr. I have 30330 miles on the car. 88QC's, 1085L1/L2's. It definitely feels like I'm down 9% in range. I don't notice it until the low end of the charge but it seems like that last 20% of the battery goes a lot quicker than it used to.


This is why I'm refusing to say that the software update cures the capacity loss problem. My best GUESS at this point is that there is a bug in the original firmware that affects SOME 30kwh packs in the way that Nissan claims: makes them under-report actual capacity. It doesn't look to me like this cures the design or chemistry issue with those packs that speeds degradation in most of them.
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Tsiah
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Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:52 am
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Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:19 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
This is why I'm refusing to say that the software update cures the capacity loss problem. My best GUESS at this point is that there is a bug in the original firmware that affects SOME 30kwh packs in the way that Nissan claims: makes them under-report actual capacity. It doesn't look to me like this cures the design or chemistry issue with those packs that speeds degradation in most of them.
I don't think it did anything aside from reset the BMS. :lol:
I don't think I'm outside of normal degradation. 10% in the first year is expected isn't it?

WetEV
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Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:41 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Tsiah wrote:2016 SL. I was in the low 90% SOH (I think 92-94%) before I got the firmware update. Immediately I saw over 101%SOH after the update and the SOH is now back to 91.62% 3 months later. 72.82Ahr. I have 30330 miles on the car. 88QC's, 1085L1/L2's. It definitely feels like I'm down 9% in range. I don't notice it until the low end of the charge but it seems like that last 20% of the battery goes a lot quicker than it used to.


This is why I'm refusing to say that the software update cures the capacity loss problem. My best GUESS at this point is that there is a bug in the original firmware that affects SOME 30kwh packs in the way that Nissan claims: makes them under-report actual capacity. It doesn't look to me like this cures the design or chemistry issue with those packs that speeds degradation in most of them.


How so?

Where is Tsiah located? It would be nice if he/she would click on their name in the upper right of the screen, then select "profile", then enter something meaningful into the location. Don't need to put in anything exact, just close enough. Anchorage, AK, Marathon, FL or Bullhead City, AZ?

Let's see. 9% loss at 30k miles, 27% at 90k, 30% at 100k, looks like on track to miss the warranty, which is at about 66%. So why is this a design issue again? If this is Anchorage, would be a problem. If Bullhead City, no. Batteries don't last forever.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:21 pm

What I'm saying is that the update just temporarily inflated the SOH by a bit more than the amount of capacity lost, with none of that 'phantom regained capacity' sticking around. So we have either a programming defect in the BMS that doesn't affect many/most 30kwh Leafs, or a software "fix" that doesn't fix anything. If my 2013 had suffered a 27% capacity loss over three years I'd have been damned upset.
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WetEV
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Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:11 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:What I'm saying is that the update just temporarily inflated the SOH by a bit more than the amount of capacity lost, with none of that 'phantom regained capacity' sticking around. So we have either a programming defect in the BMS that doesn't affect many/most 30kwh Leafs, or a software "fix" that doesn't fix anything. If my 2013 had suffered a 27% capacity loss over three years I'd have been damned upset.


Measurement on a group of cars showed that capacity was more accurately measured after the firmware update.

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-ni ... reporting/

SOH is an estimate, not a measurement. Don't take it as exact, as it is not. At minimum, +-3%. Probably more. Especially with the bad firmware.

27% loss is not what is being reported. 9% is. 27% is a linear extrapolation based on 90k miles. Or 30% for 100k miles. Or warranty limit at 110k miles, 10k miles past the limit. Real capacity loss isn't linear, the first couple of percent should happen fairly quickly, then it slows down for a while. SOH might or might not show this, SOH is an estimate, remember?

If you drove 2013 for 90k miles and you had a 27% loss would you be damned upset? That's one and a half time the warranty. If you drove for $0.27 per mile, you would be damned upset? Really??? How cheap would it have to be to make you just upset, rather than damned upset? Would "happy" come before $0.00 per mile?

Less tax credits, etc. Plus insurance, electric costs, tires, window washer fluid, etc.

https://exchange.aaa.com/wp-content/upl ... Lo-5-2.pdf

AAA says that an electric is still slightly more expensive per mile than a hybrid, and slightly lower cost per mile than the average vehicle. The electric is getting cheaper. The average vehicle is getting more expensive. Where you and I live, we should do better with electrics than the AAA's national average because our electric power is cheap and our climates make batteries last longer. We have a shot of beating the Prius, even with the older cars with smaller and shorter lived batteries. Someone in LA probably doesn't. Someone in Bullhead City??
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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SageBrush
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Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:48 pm

WetEV wrote:Let's see. 9% loss at 30k miles, 27% at 90k, 30% at 100k, looks like on track to miss the warranty, which is at about 66%. So why is this a design issue again?

It may not be from Nissan's POV, but a throw-away car at 100k miles is a BIG problem
Last edited by SageBrush on Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:52 pm

Your really are a fount of obfuscation, WetEV, which is why I rarely read you. Mileage driven does not correlate to capacity loss, and with good lithium packs like the 4/2013 through 2015 packs, time, while a factor, isn't a large one. So we have my 2013 (and Cwerdna's, IIRC) Leaf losing about 13% capacity over almost five years, which is typical for a Wolf or Lizard pack in a mild climate. Then we have the above pack, losing 9% over something like 12-15 months even after the update. My skepticism over this magical "update," tempered by my always adding that we don't know for sure either way yet, isn't harming anyone and it may be steering people away from making unfortunate choices. Your unbridled optimism and claims of the "error" being eliminated by the update, OTOH, may be causing people to buy 30kwh cars that won't meet their needs in three, two, or even one year. Try to understand that what we write here is taken seriously by others, and that the quasi-authority conferred comes with responsibilities.
Last edited by LeftieBiker on Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SageBrush
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Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:01 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Your really are a font of obfuscation, WetEV

Agreed.

Btw, you meant 'fount'
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
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2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:14 am

Typo fixed. Auto-correct is a double-edged sward.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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