cwerdna
Posts: 8397
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:54 am

LeftieBiker wrote:Your really are a fount of obfuscation, WetEV, which is why I rarely read you. Mileage driven does not correlate to capacity loss, and with good lithium packs like the 4/2013 through 2015 packs, time, while a factor, isn't a large one. So we have my 2013 (and Cwerdna's, IIRC) Leaf losing about 13% capacity over almost five years, which is typical for a Wolf or Lizard pack in a mild climate. Then we have the above pack, losing 9% over something like 12-15 months even after the update. My skepticism over this magical "update," tempered by my always adding that we don't know for sure either way yet,...

FWIW, my 5/2013 built used '13 Leaf is past 5 years old now and SOH is now hovering at around 83.xx%. (Carfax and Autocheck both say my car was manufactured 5/23/13.)

Stats from a few hours ago were:
AHr: 54.80
SOH: 83.82%
Hx: 78.75%
odo: 59,163 miles
L1/L2s: 3793
QCs: 0 (don't have CHAdeMO)

But from about 12 hours before that, they were:
AHr: 54.95
SOH: 84.02%
Hx: 79.13%
odo: 59,133 miles
L1/L2s: 3791
QCs: 0

I'd have to dig back to see what it was at 5 years of age and a bit before.

viewtopic.php?p=511915#p511915 was my post about my 1st capacity bar loss. SOH from that point plus maybe 6 months tended to fluctuate from 83% to 86% or so. Somewhere along the way, I think Turbo3 added the two more digits of "precision" to the Leaf Spy UI.

The climate for my home and work are not that mild. I'm in a hotter part of the South Bay. I've been trying to baby my battery on most days. There's 1 guy at my work who lost 4 bars on his '11 or '12 before the 5 year/60K capacity warranty expired. There's a guy I know from https://www.facebook.com/groups/BayLeafs/ who also lost 4 bars in time. Another guy from the same FB group missed the capacity warranty and jumped ship to Clarity BEV. I think he also now has a Model 3.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
Posts: 2369
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:03 am

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:Let's see. 9% loss at 30k miles, 27% at 90k, 30% at 100k, looks like on track to miss the warranty, which is at about 66%. So why is this a design issue again?

It may not be from Nissan's POV, but a throw-away car at 100k miles is a BIG problem


So if any car dies at 100k miles, that's a BIG problem?? Even if the average is more? I'm old enough to remember when any car making it to 100k was somewhat unusual.

I've long taken the view that battery replacements would be a fact of life with older electric cars. That and people driving cars well past the warranty point.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

WetEV
Posts: 2369
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:32 am

LeftieBiker wrote:Your really are a fount of obfuscation, WetEV, which is why I rarely read you.


If you only read people you agree with, you are less likely to learn things.

LeftieBiker wrote:Mileage driven does not correlate to capacity loss,


Interesting. Cycle count isn't the only thing that matters, but cycle count matters. Why does Nissan put a mile limit on the battery warranty, if miles don't matter?

LeftieBiker wrote:My skepticism over this magical "update," tempered by my always adding that we don't know for sure either way yet, isn't harming anyone and it may be steering people away from making unfortunate choices. Your unbridled optimism and claims of the "error" being eliminated by the update, OTOH, may be causing people to buy 30kwh cars that won't meet their needs in three, two, or even one year. Try to understand that what we write here is taken seriously by others, and that the quasi-authority conferred comes with responsibilities.


What I recommend, is that people buy an electric that meets their needs in adverse conditions with a margin of safety at the warranty replacement limit. If they do so, and until they drive over 100k miles/8 years, the LEAF 30 kWh will meet their needs or the battery will be replaced.

I'd suggest you also consider the "quasi-authority conferred comes with responsibilities."
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

Tsiah
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:52 am
Delivery Date: 01 Oct 2017
Location: Salt Lake City

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:00 pm

WetEV wrote:
Where is Tsiah located? It would be nice if he/she would click on their name in the upper right of the screen, then select "profile", then enter something meaningful into the location.

Salt Lake City, Utah

SageBrush
Posts: 2910
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:23 pm

WetEV wrote:What I recommend, is that people buy an electric that meets their needs in adverse conditions with a margin of safety at the warranty replacement limit.
ok ...

Start with 28 kWh for the '30 kWh' LEAF
Knock off 25% for adverse conditions
Knock off 40% for margin of safety at warranty
Knock off 10% for range anxiety

28*0.75*0.60*0.9 = 11.34 kWh

Or a fully functional range of ~ 45 miles over a decade of use.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 2369
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:53 pm

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:What I recommend, is that people buy an electric that meets their needs in adverse conditions with a margin of safety at the warranty replacement limit.
ok ...

Start with 28 kWh for the '30 kWh' LEAF
Knock off 25% for adverse conditions
Knock off 40% for margin of safety at warranty
Knock off 10% for range anxiety

28*0.75*0.60*0.9 = 11.34 kWh

Or a fully functional range of ~ 45 miles over a decade of use.


Adverse conditions depends on where you live, of course. Might be more than that in the Yukon.

Range anxiety isn't what you would have if you drove a 30 kWh LEAF over a 45 mile round trip commute most places for a decade or more. Just drive, plug in when you get home and unplug when you leave. A commuting machine. Remember that sometimes, boring is good.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

SageBrush
Posts: 2910
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:06 pm

WetEV wrote:Adverse conditions depends on where you live, of course. Might be more than that in the Yukon.

Range anxiety isn't what you would have if you drove a 30 kWh LEAF over a 45 mile round trip commute most places for a decade or more. Just drive, plug in when you get home and unplug when you leave. A commuting machine. Remember that sometimes, boring is good.


25% for a 4 season climate. You can comment on Seattle.
No range anxiety after 45 miles because of the of ~ 10 miles reserve.

I take it you do not like your own advice when calculated out ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 2369
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:20 pm

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:Adverse conditions depends on where you live, of course. Might be more than that in the Yukon.

Range anxiety isn't what you would have if you drove a 30 kWh LEAF over a 45 mile round trip commute most places for a decade or more. Just drive, plug in when you get home and unplug when you leave. A commuting machine. Remember that sometimes, boring is good.


25% for a 4 season climate. You can comment on Seattle.


Seattle has a 4 season climate. Rain, showers, clouds and sometimes even sun.

WetEV wrote:I take it you do not like your own advice when calculated out ?


Eh? How did you possibly get that?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13328
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:16 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Tsiah wrote:2016 SL. I was in the low 90% SOH (I think 92-94%) before I got the firmware update. Immediately I saw over 101%SOH after the update and the SOH is now back to 91.62% 3 months later. 72.82Ahr. I have 30330 miles on the car. 88QC's, 1085L1/L2's. It definitely feels like I'm down 9% in range. I don't notice it until the low end of the charge but it seems like that last 20% of the battery goes a lot quicker than it used to.


This is why I'm refusing to say that the software update cures the capacity loss problem. My best GUESS at this point is that there is a bug in the original firmware that affects SOME 30kwh packs in the way that Nissan claims: makes them under-report actual capacity. It doesn't look to me like this cures the design or chemistry issue with those packs that speeds degradation in most of them.


It was never Nissan's claim that it cured capacity loss. The update only restores the 30 kwh pack on the Nissan improvement curve. IOW, the 30 kwh pack should be better than the 24 kwh pack. Granted part of it is simply a larger pack making cycling the same miles easier, etc. But before the update, many were not seeing that. Salt Lake may not be a Phoenix, but its hardly mild there in Summer.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9804
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:17 pm

It was never Nissan's claim that it cured capacity loss.


Except that what I wrote is "capacity loss problem" - NOT "capacity loss." You can choose to interpret that as "all capacity loss" but that would be silly. Just read it in context.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Return to “News & Main LEAF Discussion”