lorenfb
Posts: 1845
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:01 am

apzelic wrote:Yesterday (6/25/18) we took our 2016 30kw-hr Leaf in for the recall 'software update' (SU) and I will report some limited data below. I did not have time to drain the battery to VLBW and record the voltage on LeafSpy, nor did I do so after the SU update (though I will be doing so; see below), but perhaps the data presented below will be helpful.


Before the SU yesterday -- when the dashboard SOC read 80% and the # of bars was 11/12 as it had been since November 2017 at 6,200 miles -- LeafSpy reported the following data:
  1. SOH = 80.1%
  2. Hx = 76.79
  3. SHVolt = 388

Immediately after the SU the Dashboard read 12/12 bars (that is we 'recovered' back to 12/12 from 11/12 bars) and the following LeafSpy data was obtained
  1. SOH = 91.6%
  2. Hx = 76.79
  3. SHVolt= 378



Why is it that the Hx (the inverse of the ratio of internal battery resistances over time X 100%) has not changed with the update?
The SOH and Hx should track over time as both relate to the battery's degradation over time. The Hx of about 77% indicates that
the battery's internal conductance (reciprocal of resistance) over time has decreased by about 23%. This resulted in more heat
generation while driving and charging versus when the battery was new. Did the engineers at Nissan when designing the update
forget to also modify the Hx along with SOH and restoring the lost bars?

Another data point from up-thread; viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26009&start=50#p530487

Before update was down 2 bars

SOH: 75.45%
AHr: 56.97
Hx: 68.83%

After update all 12 bars restored

SOH: 87.71%
AHr: 69.71
Hx: 68.57%
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 70K miles, 49 Ahrs, 5.1 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13281
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:10 am

jbuntz wrote:QC charging 30kWh after update. It was hot out about 100°. Battery was at 99° at beginning of charge. 120° at the end. The last time I charged at this charger I started at 45kW. The charger stopped after 30 minutes. After the charger restarted I was closer to 22kW. This lasted for about 15 minutes then it started tapering again an I gave up at 2kW. Total charge time 1hr.

Is this normal? I have only QC a few times so not sure if it is due to software update.

This morning the battery temp was still 96-106°

Also driving back while trying to accelerate the motor was limited to 33kW instead of 80kW. Never seen this before either.



What was starting/ending SOC for each session? I have never seen a slow down on a charge with one exception and I wrote that off as a station hiccup since neither high SOC or heat was involved.

I charged over 45 KW with batt temps at 127º
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jfr2006
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:56 am
Delivery Date: 19 Jun 2018

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:19 pm

jbuntz wrote:QC charging 30kWh after update. It was hot out about 100°. Battery was at 99° at beginning of charge. 120° at the end. The last time I charged at this charger I started at 45kW. The charger stopped after 30 minutes. After the charger restarted I was closer to 22kW. This lasted for about 15 minutes then it started tapering again an I gave up at 2kW. Total charge time 1hr.

Is this normal? I have only QC a few times so not sure if it is due to software update.

This morning the battery temp was still 96-106°

Also driving back while trying to accelerate the motor was limited to 33kW instead of 80kW. Never seen this before either.


Well, if you were connected to the QC for 30 minutes, you have reached the 80% of charge for sure and over passed it. From 80% above, the charging speed reduces.

As for the power limitation, when the battery is to hot, it's normal the leaf to reduce the power. Heve you reached the red bars on the battery temperature?

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:09 pm

lorenfb wrote:
apzelic wrote:Yesterday (6/25/18) we took our 2016 30kw-hr Leaf in for the recall 'software update' (SU) and I will report some limited data below. I did not have time to drain the battery to VLBW and record the voltage on LeafSpy, nor did I do so after the SU update (though I will be doing so; see below), but perhaps the data presented below will be helpful.


Before the SU yesterday -- when the dashboard SOC read 80% and the # of bars was 11/12 as it had been since November 2017 at 6,200 miles -- LeafSpy reported the following data:
  1. SOH = 80.1%
  2. Hx = 76.79
  3. SHVolt = 388

Immediately after the SU the Dashboard read 12/12 bars (that is we 'recovered' back to 12/12 from 11/12 bars) and the following LeafSpy data was obtained
  1. SOH = 91.6%
  2. Hx = 76.79
  3. SHVolt= 378



Why is it that the Hx (the inverse of the ratio of internal battery resistances over time X 100%) has not changed with the update?
The SOH and Hx should track over time as both relate to the battery's degradation over time. The Hx of about 77% indicates that
the battery's internal conductance (reciprocal of resistance) over time has decreased by about 23%. This resulted in more heat
generation while driving and charging versus when the battery was new. Did the engineers at Nissan when designing the update
forget to also modify the Hx along with SOH and restoring the lost bars?

Another data point from up-thread; http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 50#p530487

Before update was down 2 bars

SOH: 75.45%
AHr: 56.97
Hx: 68.83%

After update all 12 bars restored

SOH: 87.71%
AHr: 69.71
Hx: 68.57%


SOH and Hx are different parameters. They will not necessarily follow each other as the battery ages. Right now, my 2015 with 10 capacity bars at 63661 miles has SOH at 74.22% and Hx at 51.71%. I can tell that internal resistance has increased, but it is still relatively low compared to my 2011.

There is a lot of speculation in this thread as to what the software update will actually do long term. The similar software update on my 2011 (P3227) did not change the capacity of the battery as measured by comparing L2 charging energy from Shutdown (main contactor opening) to full charge before and after, but it did greatly improve the accuracy and linearity of both dashboard instrumentation and CAN Bus data displayed by Leaf Spy.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

lorenfb
Posts: 1845
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:08 pm

GerryAZ wrote:SOH and Hx are different parameters.


Yes, of course!

GerryAZ wrote:They will not necessarily follow each other as the battery ages.


Not exactly, but degradation affects both and they should track.

You haven't answered why the Hx didn't change at all in the two examples after the update, but SOH did.



GerryAZ wrote:Right now, my 2015 with 10 capacity bars at 63661 miles has SOH at 74.22% and Hx at 51.71%. I can tell that internal resistance has increased, but it is still relatively low compared to my 2011.


Tests done on my '13, the 30kWh, and the 2018 indicate that the internal resistance of all three are less than 100 mohms but greater than
50 mohms. That's hardly that different. Obviously, the values vary with temp and age.

With regard to Hx, my MY13 at about 65K has a Hx of 70% versus your '15 at about the same mileage with Hx at 52%. So your internal
battery conductance has basically doubled versus mine.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 70K miles, 49 Ahrs, 5.1 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

jbuntz
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:41 am
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:13 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
jbuntz wrote:QC charging 30kWh after update. It was hot out about 100°. Battery was at 99° at beginning of charge. 120° at the end. The last time I charged at this charger I started at 45kW. The charger stopped after 30 minutes. After the charger restarted I was closer to 22kW. This lasted for about 15 minutes then it started tapering again an I gave up at 2kW. Total charge time 1hr.

Is this normal? I have only QC a few times so not sure if it is due to software update.

This morning the battery temp was still 96-106°

Also driving back while trying to accelerate the motor was limited to 33kW instead of 80kW. Never seen this before either.



What was starting/ending SOC for each session? I have never seen a slow down on a charge with one exception and I wrote that off as a station hiccup since neither high SOC or heat was involved.

I charged over 45 KW with batt temps at 127º


Both started at under 10 GIDs. Finished at 100% and 99%
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
Date Bar MI GID Ahr SOH
05/17 12 05175 324 70.75 89
08/17 11 09245 282 61.68 77
10/17 10 12000 260 57.22 71
01/18 09 15329 244 53.72 68
06/20 08 21716 230 50.41 63
06/27 11 22047 296 66.01 83 Aftr Updt

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13281
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:26 pm

jbuntz wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
jbuntz wrote:QC charging 30kWh after update. It was hot out about 100°. Battery was at 99° at beginning of charge. 120° at the end. The last time I charged at this charger I started at 45kW. The charger stopped after 30 minutes. After the charger restarted I was closer to 22kW. This lasted for about 15 minutes then it started tapering again an I gave up at 2kW. Total charge time 1hr.

Is this normal? I have only QC a few times so not sure if it is due to software update.

This morning the battery temp was still 96-106°

Also driving back while trying to accelerate the motor was limited to 33kW instead of 80kW. Never seen this before either.



What was starting/ending SOC for each session? I have never seen a slow down on a charge with one exception and I wrote that off as a station hiccup since neither high SOC or heat was involved.

I charged over 45 KW with batt temps at 127º


Both started at under 10 GIDs. Finished at 100% and 99%


You been restricted! I see the same thing in my 40 kwh pack all the time. 120º? expect 22 KW.... 125º? expect 16 KW.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jbuntz
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:41 am
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:14 pm

jfr2006 wrote:Hi:

Any of you that did the software fix noticed any changes on the regeneration braking or changes in the fast charge speed (kind like a rapidgate issue)?

No change in Regen for me. Fast Charge is limited for high temps, but I have only FC 6 times so I am no expert.
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
Date Bar MI GID Ahr SOH
05/17 12 05175 324 70.75 89
08/17 11 09245 282 61.68 77
10/17 10 12000 260 57.22 71
01/18 09 15329 244 53.72 68
06/20 08 21716 230 50.41 63
06/27 11 22047 296 66.01 83 Aftr Updt

jbuntz
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:41 am
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:48 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:That's meaningless information. ANYTIME the BMS is reset the capacity display returns to 12 bars for a time, regardless of the actual capacity of the battery. New software almost certainly means the BMS is reset, so we will have to wait for some time (weeks, at a minimum) to find out what changes have ACTUALLY occurred.


Your statement tells me that you still don't understand the root problem that this update resolves.


I was at 8 bars, 50.4 AHr, 63.41% SOH, prior to the update. Now at 11 bars, 66.1 AHr, 83.16% SOH 22k miles. The commuting range has improved from about 75-80 miles to 90 miles from 100% to turtle. I am now seeing 88-92 miles on the GOM after a full charge. LeafSpy says my total charge has increased from 17.8 kWH to 22.9 kWH.

While this is definitely an improvement, I do not feel like the software update solved the root problem of my 30 kWh battery. It seems like it has just postponed my eligibility for a replacement by a year or 2 and I will have to live with what amounts to a 24 kWh battery after I just spent the last year living with a 24 kWh and less battery.

What do you think, did this resolve my battery issues??
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
Date Bar MI GID Ahr SOH
05/17 12 05175 324 70.75 89
08/17 11 09245 282 61.68 77
10/17 10 12000 260 57.22 71
01/18 09 15329 244 53.72 68
06/20 08 21716 230 50.41 63
06/27 11 22047 296 66.01 83 Aftr Updt

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13281
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:03 pm

jbuntz wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:That's meaningless information. ANYTIME the BMS is reset the capacity display returns to 12 bars for a time, regardless of the actual capacity of the battery. New software almost certainly means the BMS is reset, so we will have to wait for some time (weeks, at a minimum) to find out what changes have ACTUALLY occurred.


Your statement tells me that you still don't understand the root problem that this update resolves.


I was at 8 bars, 50.4 AHr, 63.41% SOH, prior to the update. Now at 11 bars, 66.1 AHr, 83.16% SOH 22k miles. The commuting range has improved from about 75-80 miles to 90 miles from 100% to turtle. I am now seeing 88-92 miles on the GOM after a full charge. LeafSpy says my total charge has increased from 17.8 kWH to 22.9 kWH.

While this is definitely an improvement, I do not feel like the software update solved the root problem of my 30 kWh battery. It seems like it has just postponed my eligibility for a replacement by a year or 2 and I will have to live with what amounts to a 24 kWh battery after I just spent the last year living with a 24 kWh and less battery.

What do you think, did this resolve my battery issues??


Your case is interesting in a few different ways;

*Your reset went immediately to 11 bars. You are the only one I know of that didnt have 12 bars for at least a short period of time

*Your fast charging speed has slowed down. Not a lot of feedback on this yet but a few have stated they saw no change while yours was throttled by a significant amount.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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