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OrientExpress
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Re: LEAF+ press release

Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:02 am

LEAF buyers are incredibly price sensitive, with range and technology being of lesser importance. The LEAF S 40kWh is Nissan's biggest seller, so it will be around until the COGS for a 62kWh version is at parity with the 40kWh variant.
2018 LEAF SL
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Tsiah
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Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:52 am
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Location: Salt Lake City

Re: LEAF+ press release

Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:00 pm

WetEV wrote:
My LEAF's battery, even on a summer trip with multiple QCs, has not gotten close to 45C. At best a TMS would only add weight, reduce reliability... about the only good thing about a TMS would be that power draw would be minimal locally. Because it would never turn on.

Where are you taking summer trips and doing a QC(or multiple QCs) and not getting close to 45*C? 113*F is a temperature I've seen a number of times without doing a QC that day. I did 2 QCs yesterday, drove 180 miles and the battery was just above 90*F. It was in the mid 20*F range yesterday.
I put 250 miles on the car one day last year and had 2 short QCs... The battery was 124*F and even after cooling off overnight was still 80*F in the morning. How would a TMS reduce reliability? Have you heard a single TMS issue with Chevy EVs? Tesla? Fiat? BMW? How about early battery degradation with their cars?
A 62kWh battery is less likely to need a QC in the first place(longer range) and have a lower current draw per cell to produce the same overall output so it will likely stay cooler than a 24,30 or 40kWh pack, but it's still a shitty idea to not have TMS. In the winter you can keep the pack at a more efficient temperature (I see mine daily in the 40-50*F range... Even after charging for an hour and running heat for 30 minutes of that before I leave) during QC you can keep the pack under 100*F

cwerdna
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Re: LEAF+ press release

Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:50 pm

Tsiah wrote: How would a TMS reduce reliability? Have you heard a single TMS issue with Chevy EVs? Tesla? Fiat? BMW?

Actually for BMW, yes.

A quick search w/Facebook's crappy search (you need to an i3 group member) revealed these 4 folks (there might be more, since I didn't go digging further) had some AC failure that caused metal to be spewed into and contaminating the cooling lines. Several of these mentioned needing to replace the cooling lines/grid for the cells.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/p ... 772837637/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/p ... 862623994/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/p ... 347547686/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/p ... 22R9%22%7D

In at least one case, the AC compressor was killed by metal fragments from something else that failed in the system.

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WetEV
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Re: LEAF+ press release

Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:59 pm

Tsiah wrote:I put 250 miles on the car one day last year and had 2 short QCs... The battery was 124*F and even after cooling off overnight was still 80*F in the morning. How would a TMS reduce reliability? Have you heard a single TMS issue with Chevy EVs? Tesla? Fiat? BMW? How about early battery degradation with their cars?


You live in Salt Lake City, about 10 C warmer than Seattle, and about 4 C warmer than Denver in July.

On the day that you drove 250 miles, your battery was about 6 C warmer than where a Tesla would start to cool the battery (45 C). That means you lost almost a day more battery life that day than you would have with a Tesla style TMS. Do that 3 times a year for 10 years, and your battery will get to 70% almost a whole month earlier.

Honda Fit EV doesn't have battery cooling, and has done well. Ford Focus Electric has done about as well as the LEAF, and has an extensive battery cooling system, and no DCQC capability.

Battery chemistry is complex. TMS sounds simple.

Like the old joke of a drunk looking for his lost keys under the street light. Not close where he lost them, but the light was better.


Tsiah wrote:but it's still a shitty idea to not have TMS.


Why?

A TMS would never turn on for me. Why should I want one? A TMS isn't the difference that many seem to think it is. Most of the time, in most of the cars, failure of the battery cooling system wouldn't be noticeable as it would never attempt to turn on. Why should I pay to have one?
WetEV
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Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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Triggerhappy007
Posts: 37
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Re: LEAF+ press release

Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:04 pm

WetEV wrote: Ford Focus Electric has done about as well as the LEAF, and has an extensive battery cooling system, and no DCQC capability.

Actually, the 2017s and 2018s added DCQC along with a larger battery for 100+ mile range. I'm a previous 2015 FFE owner. I did notice degradation after 3 years of ownership in TX. It didn't have an app like leafspy so I couldn't objectively compare and I also had different tires.
2019 Leaf SL ProPilot
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Tsiah
Posts: 138
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Delivery Date: 01 Oct 2017
Location: Salt Lake City

Re: LEAF+ press release

Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:15 am

cwerdna wrote: some AC failure that caused metal to be spewed into and contaminating the cooling lines. Several of these mentioned needing to replace the cooling lines/grid for the cells.

In at least one case, the AC compressor was killed by metal fragments from something else that failed in the system.

I'm a bit under informed then, I didn't know they used the AC system to cool the pack. That doesn't seem like a good idea.

Tsiah
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Re: LEAF+ press release

Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:25 am

WetEV wrote:Why?

A TMS would never turn on for me. Why should I want one? A TMS isn't the difference that many seem to think it is. Most of the time, in most of the cars, failure of the battery cooling system wouldn't be noticeable as it would never attempt to turn on. Why should I pay to have one?

With such a large pack there are more places it will struggle to keep cool on longer trips, especially with 100+kW charging if we ever see it.
Maybe more of it is the size of the pack or chemistry vs having the TMS, but I don't see any 8 year old Leafs with 90% capacity. Then again 10% loss hurts a lot more when your range was barely 100 miles to begin with. If you start 250 miles of range, 225 miles still looks pretty good.

Leaf15
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Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: LEAF+ press release

Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:59 am

What is interesting, Hyundai Ioniq EV beats Leaf badly on highway and about the same in city driving. So we have 28kWh battery vs. 40 kWh. The reason - very low drag. Despite the fact Ioniq has smaller battery and very limited/primitive battery temperature management it works better in freezing temperatures and charges faster. It is not even 1-to-1 ratio. Ionic EV battery SOC level was significantly above Nissan Leaf battery throughout the entire trip. And despite the fact Ioniq is very aerodynamic the rear seats comfort was comparable to Leaf. For reference, Tesla Model 3 has only a 1/3 of rear seat height of either car, which they commented on and more than once.

"New Nissan Leaf vs Hyundai Ioniq road trip" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj3MsS9M3dE

Looks like Hyundai Kona is quite efficient also and was above expectations on other trip: Kona vs. Tesla Model X https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inAQNHKhcrA
Leaf 2015 SV CPO traded for 2019 Hyundai Ionic Limited

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: LEAF+ press release

Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:45 am

Tsiah wrote:
cwerdna wrote: some AC failure that caused metal to be spewed into and contaminating the cooling lines. Several of these mentioned needing to replace the cooling lines/grid for the cells.

In at least one case, the AC compressor was killed by metal fragments from something else that failed in the system.

I'm a bit under informed then, I didn't know they used the AC system to cool the pack. That doesn't seem like a good idea.


Is there another cooling system? Because if not AC you are back to LEAF "tech" (said a bit sarcastically)

Well, I guess you could use a radiator system (LEAF does have one)
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Tsiah
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:52 am
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Re: LEAF+ press release

Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:13 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Is there another cooling system? Because if not AC you are back to LEAF "tech" (said a bit sarcastically)

Well, I guess you could use a radiator system (LEAF does have one)

Tesla circulates coolant around their cells.

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